Genealogy Chat

Yes, I've edited my post, thought you'd be in bed by now! Think that is her birth I posted in West Derby. Not that many Roche's around. On a later census, if it is the right Catherine (mother) she was born Dublin, still a widow & servant.

Yes you are right Flip, esp in a county with excellent resources. On the baptisms site I found a Minister called Geo Haworth so that may be where Haworth got his unusual name. Margaret Roach was his wife and this got transformed into a middle name of "Roche" for some of the subsequent children. I believe she was from Ireland.

Think this may be her mother in 1851 (a widow):

Catherine Roach
Age 50
Estimated Year of Birth 1801
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Occupation Servant
Address
District West Derby, Toxteth Park
Parish Toxteth Park Extra Parochial
Administrative County Lancashire
Birth Place Ireland

Also in same household Catherine Roach (20) also a servant, but born Ireland.

According to the 1871 census Margaret was born Liverpool, this may be her in 1861 staying with David & Margaret Bailey - licenced vitulars, it puts her in the area:

Margaret Roach
Age 21
Estimated Year of Birth 1840
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Occupation House Servant
Address Bolton Road
District Bury, Elton
Parish Elton
Administrative County Lancashire
Birth Place Liverpool

Looks like she was a servant to John Dixon in 1851 in Liverpool, but possibly with parents in 1841 (West Derby is part of Liverpool)

Margaret Roach
Age 2
Estimated Year of Birth 1839
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation Juvenile
Address Wood Street Court
District Derby, West, Derby, West
Parish Walton On The Hill
Administrative County Lancashire
Birth Place Lancashire
Birth County Lancashire

Other family (really bad copy)
John 35 - Horse or House ?? not born in county
Catherine 40 - not born Lancs
Catherine 6 born Lancs

[parents born Ireland according to transcript]

Her birth?
Births Sep 1838 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ROACH Margaret West Derby 20 859

It makes it easier when they stay in the same area!

Marriages Sep 1862 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Buckley William Bury 8c 386
Ingham Ellen Bury 8c 386
Kay Haworth Bury 8c 386 <<<
Roach Margaret Bury 8c 386 <<<

Fantastic piece of sleuthing guys. My pal is going to be amazed with the progress when he gets up tomorrow am LOL

Burial: 24 Jul 1880 Emmanuel, Holcombe, Lancashire, England
Ellen Kay -
Age: 70
Abode: Holcombe
Grave: 1279
Buried by: H. Dowsett & H. Nightingale Currate of All Souls St. Marylebone
Register: Burials 1870 - 1902, Page 130, Entry 1039
Source: LDS Film 2356156

Burial: 28 May 1889 Emmanuel, Holcombe, Lancashire, England
William Kay -
Age: 84
Abode: Helmshore Road
Grave: 65
Buried by: H. Dowsett
Register: Burials 1870 - 1902, Page 245, Entry 1954
Source: LDS Film 2356156

1881:

KAY, William Head Widower M 76 1805 General Labourer
Tottington
Lancashire VIEW
KAY, Jonathan Son Single M 47 1834 Farm Labourer
Tottington
Lancashire VIEW
KAY, Jane Daughter Single F 45 1836 Housekeeper
Tottington
Lancashire VIEW
KAY, Giles E Son Single M 33 1848 Labourer (Woolen Mill)
Tottington
Lancashire VIEW
KAY, Teddy Grand Son Single M 19 1862 Labourer For Machine Printer
Tottington
Lancashire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG11 Piece:
3850 Folio:
84 Page:
25

Registration District:
Bury Sub District:
Holcombe Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Tottington Lower End Municipal Borough:
Address:
Holcombe, Tottington Lower End County:
Lancashire

1871:

William Kay
Age 66
Estimated Year of Birth 1805
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Occupation
Address Holcombe
District Bury, Holcombe
Parish Tottington Lower End
Administrative County Lancashire
Birth Place Lancashire

Ellen 61
Jonathan 38 farm servant
Sarah 25 calico ?
Giles Edwin 23 clogger & shoemaker
Teddy 9 grandson

Forgot about that site Potty, so it looks like the right marriage, without having to buy a certificate!

This looks like Haworths birth reg (from Lancashirebmd - another great site for Lancashire especially as it ties up marriage partners and for some areas shows MMN):

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1838
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
KAY Haworth Holcombe Bury DAWSON

Ann and Matilda's births are also on there with MMN of Dawson.

You would need a birth certificate to confirm mothers maiden name, but there is this possible marriage for the parents:

William Kay
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Ellen Dawson
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 07 Nov 1831
Marriage Place: St. Mary, Bury, Lancashire, England
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name:
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status: Single
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00829-6
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1545467
Reference Number: Item 2 p 634 # 1900

Looks like the 2 youngest children Sarah and Giles Edwin were registered Haslingdon - this could be Giles's birth, but not sure as OPC has his christening as 2 Jan 1847.

Births Sep 1847 (>99%)
Kay Giles Edwin Haslingden 21 427

Great Flip You are right its a great resource for Lancs Ill take a look

1871 England Census
about Howarth Kay
Name: Howarth Kay
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1839
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Margaret Kay
Gender: Male
Where born: Ramsbottom, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Tottington Lower End
Ecclesiastical parish: St Anne
Town: Woolfold
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Tottington, Lower End
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 118
Household Members: Name Age
Howarth Kay 32
Margaret Kay 30
Francis Kay 8
William H Kay 5
Albert Kay 3
John Kay 7 Months

Thanks guys that is fabulous. I guess the Hay and Ray are census transcription errors. Much obliged for your efforts and sorry for the double post

If you can't find the christenings, I'll re-post, but that site is really useful for Lancashire records.

1861 England Census
about Haworth Kay
Name: Haworth Kay
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1839
Relation: Son
Father's name: William Kay
Mother's name: Ellen Kay
Gender: Male
Where born: Bury, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Tottington Lower End
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Holcombe
ED, institution, or vessel: 5a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 197
Household Members: Name Age
William Kay 56
Ellen Kay 48
Jonathan Kay 27
Haworth Kay 22
Ann Kay 20
Matilda Kay 15
Sarah Kay 15
Jaeles Edwin Kay 13
Sarah Jane Thompson 7

Go to this site: http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/

Search for births (1839 +/- 10 years) for parents William Kay and Ellen (no surname) and you'll find a lot all christened Holcombe.

They are in the Bury - Holcombe area on 2 of the census posted, but I don't know who posted them. On the 1851 census I think they were under the surname Hay.


Here is Howarth from the above site:
Baptisms: 2 Sep 1838 Emmanuel, Holcombe, Lancashire, England
Haworth Kay - Son of William Kay & Ellen
Abode: Heyhouse
Occupation: Weaver
Baptised by: C. Hart Curate
Register: Baptisms 1835 - 1852 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 72, Entry 569
Source: LDS Film 1545476

1851 England Census
about Haworth Hay
Name: Haworth Hay
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1839
Relation: Son
Father's name: William Hay
Mother's name: Ellen Hay
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Heyhouse, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Tottington Lower End
Ecclesiastical parish: Holcombe
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Holcombe
ED, institution, or vessel: 2e
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 73
Household Members: Name Age
William Hay 46
Ellen Hay 41
Jonathan Hay 16
Haworth Hay 12
Ann Hay 9
Matilda Hay 7
Sarah Hay 5
Giles Hay 3