Genealogy Chat

Thanks for all your hard work Gerry, but I think this is just a name change. I have contacted the GRO for advice, could take some time.

Margaret

Hi Madmeg

I wrote to GRO asking the difference... but their answer was in relation to the Births and Registration Act 1953 so I don't know if applies to your birth so you will need to ask that.

This was part of their reply:

***Thank you for your recent correspondence which has been forwarded to the Corrections & Re-registration section.

Corrections to a child's name in an entry:-

It is only possible to correct a child's name in a birth entry when the
Registrar General can be satisfied that an error occurred at the time of
the birth registration.

If the Registrar General cannot be satisfied that an error occurred or if
the parents have simply had a change of mind, Section 13 of the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 does provide for a different forename given to a child within 12 months the registration of the birth, whether in baptism or not, to be inserted in the birth entry. Please note there is no provision to change a child's surname in this manner.

Alternatively, there are two main types of re-registration of which I have
outlined below:-

Section 10A of the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 allows a
birth to be re-registered so that the father's name, place of birth and
occupation can be recorded.

Section 14 of the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 allows a birth
to be re-registered where the parents marry each other after the child's
birth in order to legitimise a child, under the Legitimation Act 1976.

During the re-registration application process consideration may be given
for a child's surname to be changed to either a (Mother's surname, Father's surname or a combination of them both). Unless the above section 13 of the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 applies, a child's forename cannot be changed at this point.***

My husbands birth is entered 3 times in the index (Thank God there is only one of him :-) First in the typed list and two handwritten on the bottom of the page. (The second entry was crossed out) I think they later inserted his mother's maiden name and would have come under a correction.

Hope this helps :-)

Cheers Gerry

Geraldine, what would be the difference between a correction or a re-registration? Surely either would result in a new name recorded in the final column of the certificate, and if no time of birth is given then the child might, or might not, be a twin.

Fair point though, it won't cost me anything to have a go.

Hi Madmeg

You might like to email GRO and ask if the birth in question was a Correction or a re registration?

GRO have always been very good in answering any questions I have thrown at them.

Hope this helps and let us know how you go :-)

Cheers Gerry

I'm fairly certain that even in the case of a stillborn twin the survivor has a time of birth on the certificate. (For legal reasons.) However, I know of a case in the 1940's where this didn't happen. What did happen was horrendous for the family concerned.

Thanks Penny, but the gist is that I found two births, same quarter, same mmn, same ref, and assumed they were twins. I sent for the birth cert of the twin that the family had never heard of, only to find that her original birth name had been altered to the one they DO know about (and is still living) - hence there would be two records in the register, but only one certificate. I assumed that was the end of it - they changed their minds as to what to call her. The family now says there was a twin who died, but if that twin was stillborn, I cannot access those records.

There is no death for either name. So either I am right, the child's name was simply changed, or there is a stillbirth that I cannot access.

Still births dont appaer in the birth registers- A child has to take a breath to be registered as 'born'. if they are stillborn ( dont breathe) then they go on another register - the still birth register.

if there is a birth, there should be a death....( marriage or whatever)

do you want to send the birth registration refs & Names , so I can see what you are talking about?

Well, Katie, I've no evidence of any twins at all in this family, whether identical or non-identical. I have a friend with non-identical twins, and no previous history, so it seems anything can happen.

Madmeg

Only non identical twins tend to run in families.

No, I suppose not Gwyn. I also suppose that different registrars could do it differently.

I think I have inadvertently unearthed a potentially upsetting situation for the surviving twin, in that she may have been renamed in the name of her dead twin and never knew it. Though if she had a copy of her full birth cert, she would see the amendment. Maybe she hasn't. Or maybe thought nothing of it. Perhaps I should stop at this point, as I am told that the surviving twin has no knowledge that she was a twin, if indeed she was. There is no history of twins in the family previously or afterwards. I don't know the lady concerned at all, so maybe I should leave it for now.

Thanks for any ideas, which I will file away.

Madmeg

I would guess that there would be no need to record a time of birth ( which might in some circumstances be needed to establish 'first-born' ) if only one live birth occured.

Gwyn

Further question, folks.

Over Christmas (phew!) I presented the tree to date of this family to my relative (who isn't yet a relative!) and he took it back home and showed it to his family at another gathering. Two of them were convinced that there were twins, despite my "proving" otherwise. So all I can think of is that JM was born alive, and CM (or maybe C something else) was stillborn, and the parents later amended the name of the living twin to than of the stillborn one. As their are no stillbirth records available to the public, there is nothing more I can do, and I get the impression the family don't want any further investigation on it. I have to respect that.

But just a question. If the other twin had been stillborn, would the certificate of the live twin still show a time of birth? The cert I have does not have a time of birth.

Hope you all had a good Christmas, and are looking forward to more aggro (oops - I meant fun!) in 2011.

Madmeg

Gwyn, did the midwife not tip him upside down to look for the appropriate bits?

Meg

Glad to see that the ammended certificate gave you the answer.

I have a birth cert(1888) which was later ammended to show that the so-called girl was really a boy. !

Gwyn

Just thinking, the eldest child had the initials M J, they might have only later realised the confusion of having two daughters with the same initials (albeit reversed) might cause.

I wish someone would have a look at my Catherine Turley thread - 1251855.

Meg

Well, what a suprise!

glad you solved it meg - the family were right after all

Cert arrived - not twins! J M was re-named C M in the final column. Never seen that before.

It won't let me put in less than 3 characters. J is missing, never heard of. I don't know who C married, or even if she did, EDIT, but is still alive.

Sorry Ann (and others), I don't know where I got March from. Sept is correct, as is the reference. The mmn is (EDIT - deleted). I can see both birth registrations both on Ancestry and on the GRO records. They do both have the same middle initial (M). The family has a record of naming children after ancestors, so I guess one of these girls has the middle name Mary, the mother's middle name (the first daughter had the mother's first name as a middle name). The other could be Mabel, the maternal grandmother.

I've sent for the cert, so maybe I just have to be patient.