Genealogy Chat

I am thinking I agree with Rosemary's conclusion. Alfred was named as North on the birth cert, even though she married him later as Alfred Dixon. Seems quite a likely story, but there will never be proof.

Did you have some point to make Julie? If so, I have missed it.

We all know that it is virtually impossible to positively identify the biological father of an illegitimate child. The only person who can possibly know that for certain is the child's mother and if she had sexual encounters with more than one man around the time of conception even she may not be 100% sure.

We can however look at the overall picture and make an educated guess from what we see. In this instance I would say that several facts point towards Alfred Dixon as being the child's natural father.

1) The father named on the birth certificate has the forename Alfred.

2) The mother married an Alfred very shortly after the child's birth.

3) Alfred Dixon's occupation as a soldier at the time of marriage may well have precluded marriage at a time to suit the parents or his being present at the child's birth registration. As a serving soldier he may have been on active duty elsewhere. He would also require permission from his commanding officer to get married.

4) Although there are some, I am sure that there are not many men who would marry someone with a 6 month old baby were they not, or believed themselves to be, the child's father.

It is, I agree, sometimes easy to try to make the facts we discover fit a conclusion. In this particular instance I feel that there is reasonable evidence to conclude that Alfred Dixon was the most probable father of the child whose birth was registered as Agnes Elizabeth North.

Oh look the expert is back........

"not happy with the conclusions drawn here", but can't offer anything themselves........i say no more

I've been away for a couple of weeks, the trauma of a dying cat has overtakne me. So back to the scene, and I have to say I am not happy with the conclusions drawn here, but haven't got anything better yet. As IGP says, don't make the evidence fit. Start from basics.

My likely solution is that when Elizabeth gave her surname as North then Alfred, if they were married, had to be Alfred North (not Dixon) and to cover the fact they were not married give Childs as a maiden name. I feel sad that my grandmother finding, as she thought that her father was not her biological father caused her so much pain.

Being the parish priest maybe he did father half the village, you never know. (lol)

Joke:

Man in the confessional box. "Father I have sinned"

Priest: "How have you sinned my son?"

Man: "I have fornicated with a girl in the village"

Priest: "Was it Molly Malone?"

Man: "No father"

Priest: "Was it Mary McGuire?"

Man: " No father"

Priest: "Was it Lizzie Connolly?"

Man: "No father"

Priest: "It is obvious that you do not wish to embarrass the young lady by revealing her name. I absolve you of your sin. Say 3 Hail Marys, 2 Our fathers and sin no more"

Man: "Thank you father and by the way thank you for the tips"

Or, have you considered the possibility that there are two different persons.

Don't fall into the trap of trying to make the information you have found fit. You could end up barking up the wrong tree.

& this why Elizabeth gave the name Childs

It was her mums maiden name


Marriages Dec 1856 (>99%)
Bevis Mary Ann Portsea 2b 776
>>>>>>Child Ann Portsea 2b 776
Mara Matthew Portsea 2b 776
>>>>>North Richard Portsea 2b 776

He probably was her Dad

If he was a Soldier then maybe he was able to be there when Agnes was registered
So for Elizabeth to put down a dads name she had to pretend she was marriage

Looks like that Thomas has a middle name of Charles:

London, England, Births and Baptisms,

Name Date Parent Names Parish or Poor Law Union Borough

Alfred Dixon 1 May 1865 Thomas Dixon,
Betsy Dixon St Pancras Camden

Elizabeth Hannah Dixon 13 Jan 1868 Thomas Charles Dixon,
Elizabeth Betsey Dixon St Pancras Old St Pancras Camden

Elizabeth Hannah Dixon 13 Jan 1868 Thomas Charles Dixon,
Elizabeth Betsey Dixon St Pancras Camden

Lucy Jeanette Dixon 18 Jan 1882 Thomas Charles Dixon,
Betsey Dixon Tollington Park St Mark Islington


Rose

My best guess at Alfred's family. No father present but note the elder son's name:

1881:

Name: Alfred Dixon
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1866
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Betsy Dixon
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Mary Islington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 124 Campbell Rd
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington East
ED, institution, or vessel: 36a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Betsy Dixon 42
William T. Dixon 17
Alfred Dixon 15
Elizabeth H. Dixon 13
Lucy Dixon 10

Births Dec 1863 (>99%)
DIXON William Thomas Pancras 1b 61

Births Jun 1865 (>99%)
DIXON Alfred Pancras 1b 166

1871:
Name: Alfred Dixon
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1866
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas Dixon
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Dixon
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Islington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington East
ED, institution, or vessel: 53
Household schedule number: 12
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Dixon 29 born Islington, Middlesex
Elizabeth Dixon 32 born St Pancras, Middlesex
William T Dixon 7
Alfred Dixon 5
Lucy I Dixon 4
Elizabeth Dixon 3
Thomas H Fisher 15

Not that it helps much but these were probably the witnesses. William was the caretaker at St Michaels.

1891:
Name: William J Paul
Age: 55
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Elizabeth A Paul
Gender: Male
Where born: Portsmouth, Hampshire, England
Civil parish: Portsea
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael and All Angels
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Portsea Island
Sub-registration district: Landport
ED, institution, or vessel: 28
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
William J Paul 55
Elizabeth A Paul 53

Witnesed by W T Paul and E Paul

William Thomas Dixon was a bricklayer in 1893

Was any occupation stated for Alfred Dixon's father William Thomas Dixon?

Who were the witnesses to the marriage?

You know what they say, "There's nowt as queer as folk"

I encountered a similar situation when compiling my brother in Law's family tree for him. His great grandmother also gave a false name and said that she was married when her son was born. In that case the parents married 3 years later and it was only after a lot of investigative work that I proved that the couple had been together throughout the pregnancy and in the interim period that it was considered safe to conclude who was the child's father.

In that case the story did not have a happy ending. The mother died within 12 months of the marriage and the father drowned in a boating accident 8 weeks later. To compound the tragedy their son went blind at the age of 14.

At least your story seems to have ended better.

Yes that looks like it could be them. I know my great-grandmother was married to an Alfred Dixon but what I realy want to know is why was Alfred North on the birth certificate and six months later she married an Alfred Dixon. Plus it is a little stange that the father's name given is her maiden name. That's the mystery I would like to solve.

Agnes's and Alfred's birthdates do seem to fluctuate a bit more than might be expected. This could be her and her parents in 1911:

1911:
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image
FARTHING, Alfred Austin Head Married M 35 1876 Tailors Cutter And Fitter London Hoxton VIEW
FARTHING, Hannah Wife Married
9 years F 34 1877 London St Lukes VIEW
FARTHING, Alfred John Son M 8 1903 School Middx Harringay VIEW
FARTHING, John Stanley Son M 6 1905 School London Stoke Newington VIEW
>>>DIXON, Agnes Servant Single F 16 1895 General Servant Domestic Portsmouth VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
7209 Reference:
RG14PN7209 RG78PN353 RD132 SD1 ED17 SN104

Registration District:
Edmonton Sub District:
Hornsey Enumeration District:
17 Parish:
Hornsey

Address:
86 Nelson Road Stroud Green N County:
Middlesex

>>Elizabeth and Alfred in 1911:

DIXON, Alfred Head Married M 46 1865 Painter Parish of Islington VIEW
DIXON, Elizabeth Wife Married
20 years F 41 1870 Hayling Island Hants VIEW
DIXON, Percy Son M 9 1902 Parish Islington VIEW
DIXON, Harold Son M 5 1906 Parish of Islington VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
831 Reference:
RG14PN831 RG78PN29 RD10 SD3 ED11 SN164

Registration District:
Islington Sub District:
Tollington Enumeration District:
11 Parish:
Islington

Address:
41 Fonthill Road Finsbury Park N County:
London

Thanks for that, but I'm more confused now. The names and places all seem to tally but the ages are all wrong. My Grandmother was Agnes E Dixon but if born in 1892 would not be 4 in 1901. And Elizabeth was 5 years younger than Alfred.