Genealogy Chat

Hi Sarah,

That's so sad to have an unhappy childhood, then a marriage etc.

Glad that your mum was not bitter. Maybe tehy are together somewhere now...

Best of luck, I am sure you will find who you are looking for!

Just a tip - most councils have a community website and you could always post a fairly generic message without giving to much info and ask people to contact you..

Hi,
The Dr. Barnardo's report said that both parents were too fond of dancing and drinking and having now met cousin's of Alice's who knew her who have told me she was a "bit of a girl" nudge, nudge I kind of get the impression that she just married the wrong person, wasn't happy and too young to be tied down in an unhappy marriage with 4 young children, the youngest child was only a matter of a few months old when she was placed in Barnardo's. The cousins of her's that I met didn't know that she had been married once never mind twice and definitely knew nothing about her children. Although they did see her and spend time with her after she and her first husband had parted. She was apparently really close to her maternal Grandfather, it is from his family that I have received photo's of her so now know what she looked like as a baby, child and adult. I have also been told that she had a very unhappy childhood, her Dad was apparently a bit of a bully who used to abuse her Mum. So maybe there is something in the way she was raised that caused her to give up her children. Although being rejected for the second time by Alice caused my Mum to have a nervous breakdown, she recovered and wasn't at all bitter. Her one ambition was to trace her family tree and she was going to do this when she retired. Unfortunately she died 6 weeks after retiring so I decided to try and do it for her- and here I am. Not bitter just nosy and determined if these "other children" exist to find them !!

I haven't been to the Colindale archives, but when searching for some information on a relative that died (admittedly in 1908) I went to the Westminster Archives at10 St. Ann's Street London SW1P 2DE
020 7641 5180 and found an inquest report in the local paper. You could phone them up and see what information they have.

I find electoral registers are very useful one family lived at the same address for 40 plus years and I traced their children (when old enough to be added) her death and her husband's subsequent marriage, try searching the address on the death cert, it may go back a long way.

Just another reminder, that if a married woman with children commited adultery, as the guilty party in a divorce, sometimes these children were taken off her as the powers that be in those days deemed she wasn't fit to have them.She wouldn't get any say in the matter.
These were the days when adultery had to be seen to have happened in order to get a divorce. The process of divorce sometimes included having a photograph taken at a hotel with another partner as' proof ' that adultery had taken place. It seems bizarre today but things were very different prior to the late 1960's -JLe

I always try to rationalise why people do as they do. We are all products of our upbringing and if she had not had a positive experience as a child she may not have been emotionally mature enough when the children were born. (She was under thirty with 4 children when she put them in the home)

Of course, she may not have had the support network in place to keep the children and believed they would be better off in the home. Her later rejection of your Mother may have been because she felt so guilty.

A few years ago I helped someone trace their birth Mother and I acted as a go between for them. The first question I was asked by the Mother's husband was " does ******hate her for abandoning him?" Obviously I was able to reassure the husband that there was no hatred and so contact was initiated. Perhaps it was easier for your gran to reject her daughter than possibly face rejection and anger.

HI Sarah,

I have nothing useful to add, just wanted to wish you the best of luck in your search. How sad for your mum to recive that message from her birth mother, she must have had her reasons but even so,,

Try the Salvation Army other people may have also been looking for her, you never know what might turn up.

Once again all the best

Rachelle

Hi Shirley & Janet is is possible that she had children between putting the first 4 in Barnardo's and re-marrying, but as I can't get access to her medical records I can't see if she did, or when - I have tried the obvious searches under Prangnall, Jones, Irving (can you imagine trawling thru all Jones births from mid 1940's to 1955 looking for maiden name Irving using find my past, I had double vision after the first few weeks and brain went numb after that, I think with Ancestry now able to search using mothers maiden name I might take another look there because it is quite possible I missed them first time around). If she registered them under the fathers name without marrying him then I don't even know where to start looking - which was why I wanted the medical records.

There was a divorce from the first marriage, I have copies of the divorce paperwork so will take a look in the newspapers from that time, thanks for the suggestion. I think that I may need to book more than 1 day from work to hit the Colindale archives on Friday the amount of searching I am going to be doing thru papers....the search may continue to Tuesday or Wednesday next week !!

Thanks

Sarah

Was there a divorce from the first marriage? I'd look for a report in the local paper.If there was, a co-respondent could be named. Perhaps she had children from a relationship between the two marriages.

so if she put the children in Barnardos in the mid 1940,s and didnt re marry till 1955 is it possible she had children between those times

Hi, Many thanks to everyone for looking. I have copies of both Valentine's and Alice's death certificates, the informant on Valentine's certificate was G Thurston coroner for Inner West London (which I have only just managed to read as is almost illegible) he died as a result of a fall in the street. Going to see if there are any newspaper articles around the time of the accident or inquest when I go to the newspaper archives on Friday. On Alice's death certificate it shows her name wrongly spelt but the informant is what looks like a neighbour, they both lived in a block of flats in West London Alice at no. 53 and the informant Rosie at no. 72 and her qualification for being the informant was Causing the body to be cremated. I intend when around London on Friday to see if I can find the closest crematorium to see if they have records on who arranged the service. I hadn't seen that Yvonne Pragnell was on here and have this morning tried to contact John Davies, will keep checking into the site during the day to see if any response. I also hadn't even thought about wills, so will see if I can locate a will for either of them. I do have my Mum's file from Dr. Barnardo's but there is nothing in there at all about her Mum after my Mum and her sisters were placed there in the mid1940's. Once again, many thanks to everyone who has read this and helped in this search, it is truly appreciated. Sarah

Has your Mum been in touch with Barnardos? It would be worthwhile as I'm fairly certain they would release any info from her file. You never know there could be something that gives a clue as to what happened.

sorry this looks like her death
Name: Alice Edith Pragnell
Birth Date: 8 Mar 1917
Death Registration Month/Year: Jun 1989
Age at death (estimated): 72
Registration district: Westminster
Inferred County: London
Volume: 15
Page: 1850

surname spelt a little different but no image to check if its a transcription error, same area though as Valentine

the informant may be a help in establishing any family


right reg qtr for birth

Name: Alice E Irvine
Mother's Maiden Surname: Denne
Date of Registration: Jan Feb Mar 1917
Registration district: Lambeth
Registration county: Greater London
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 475

Sarah,

Someone called John Davies has the daughter from Valentine's first marriage on this site. Have you tried contacting him?

Rose

Have you tried contacting possible Prangnell relatives - or is that too sensitive?
Jan

I'm not sure, but you might be able to look for a will. See who was mentioned in that. I forget what the process is but they're kept in York.

Rose

Hi, Alice was born in 1917 - so by the time she married again would have been almost 40, but not above child bearing age, also she could have had his children before they married, have tried all eventualities. She was a civil servant and I have even tried the government pension department to see if they can give me the names of her next of kin - again with no luck. Thanks for your thoughts on this, think that possibly she was lying about having other children.....just said that to get my Mum to stop looking.

When was Alice born?

Rose

Sarah,

It's possible there were no children and she was just lying to your mother to get her to stay away. Obviously her husband knew she was married before because of the details on the marriage cert.

Rose

Hi Rambling Rose, Thanks for looking, I have tried everywhere I can think to find these mystery children she referred to. Her 2nd husband was married before so I wondered if she was talking about step children, but the only child I can find born to him and his first wife was in 1935 so at age 20 when her dad married again wouldn't really have been a child that may have been upset by having step siblings (or I wouldn't have thought so). It's really got me stumped......I have managed to trace her fathers line back around 400 years or so, but can't bring her line forward and it's driving me insane. I truly appreciate your help in looking, many thanks. Sarah

Her husband was married before. Perhaps she's referring to his children?

Rose