Genealogy Chat

Hi All

If anyone can help me with my brickwall, I would be grateful. I have been trying for seven years to solve this problem.
I will tell you what I know and maybe someone on this board can find what I can't.( Sorry if it is a bit long)

My Great Grandfather was JOSEPH ROWELL b.1865 Liverpool.
He died in 1905, I have his birth and death cert, also newspaper obituary.
He married MARY BRANNON in 1889 Liverpool and had 10 children.( The children were Catholic)

His Parents were JOSEPH ROWELL b.1841 Carlisle and JANE.

They had JOSEPH and WILLIAM JAMES b.1870 Liverpool.

The birth cert of JOSEPH states father JOSEPH ROWELL ( Joiner) mother JANE ROWELL late Mc.Gaven formerly Potter.

My problems are :
I can't find father or son on any census until 1881when they are living next door to each other in Liverpool.

I can't find a marriage of Joseph and Jane.

I can't find a marriage of Jane Potter to a Mv.Gaven

In 1891 Joseph Snr. is living with Jane and two nephews, Hugh and Joseph Williams.

I have found a marriage of WILLIAM Williams to Mary Jane Rowell in Liverpool in 1880.

I have found a birth of Mary Jane Rowell in 1862 Liverpool.

I have then found Joseph Jnr. living next door to William and Mary Jane Williams in the 1901census.

If they are brother and sister there is a nineteen year age gap ( not unusual I know).

Today on Family Search I found the births and christenings of some of the children of Joseph and Mary, the oldest of which is John Joseph Rowell which says he was christened 26th of May 1890 Liverpool, but born in BUTE SCOTLAND on the 11th May .1890.

There is a Joseph Rowell on Family Search b.1841 Walton Cumberland, but the family emigrated to Canada, so he is not mine.
ANY IDEAS???????????

Thanks in advance

You may need to look at Scotland's People for a marriage for Joseph Rowell and Jane McGaven - as Carlisle is on the border its always possible they married in Scotland. And its possible the McGaven/Potter marriage was also in Scotland.

1881 England Census
Name: Joseph Rowell
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1841
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England

Civil parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address: 1 Holly St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Joiner

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: Islington
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Rowell 40
Jane Rowell 36
Joseph Rowell 14
William J. Rowell 11




Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 3631; Folio: 21; Page: 36; GSU roll: 1341869.

Hi NinjaLady

Thank you, until today it never occured to me to look in Scotland! A fresh pair of eyes can sometimes see what you can't. It seems pretty obvious now, but I was so focused on Carlisle and Liverpool !

Thanks

Hi Choccy

Yes i have got that one, sorry Typo error, but thanks anyway for taking the time to look for me.

Hi All
I have checked the Scottish census index and cannot find any Joseph Rowell b.1841 or b1865.
Could anyone who has access to Scottish records look for a marriage for Joseph and Jane or should I put it on a separate thread?

Thanks

Leave it on this thread but suggest you change the title to include Scotland.

Ozi

Hi

Thanks Ozi, will do

April

Hi April,
I've had a look on Scotlands People but can't find a marriage for either Joseph and Jane (under both Potter and McGaven) or any marriage for Jane to a McGaven - tried from 1855-1880.

Hollyd

Hi,

Had a look on Scotland's People but can't find a marriage for Joseph and Jane with Potter or McGaven or Rowell.

No sign of a John Joseph Rowell birth either...........

Have just checked the censuses and got the following

1851
Jane Potter age 6 District Dalkeith, City/County Midlothian
Jane Potter age 6 District Penninhame, City/County Wigtown (possibly this one as Wigtown is near the Scottish Borders)

1861
Jane Potter age 17 Dist. Glasserton, City/County Wigtown
Jane Potter age 17 Dist. St. George, City/County Edinburgh City, Midlothian

19

Hi Hollyd

Thankyou so much for looking for me, I am wondering if they emigrated for a few years and then came back? From the information I have got, nothing seems to add up.
Where were they until 1881? If Mary Jane was born in Liverpool in 1862, where was she until 1891?
Where were Joseph and William in 1871?
Where was Joseph Snr. before 1881?

My brickwall !

Thanks April

Also

1871 Census

Jane Potter age 26 District Whithorn, City/County Wigtown
Jane Potter age 25 District Linlithgow, City/County West Lothian
Jane Potter age 27 District Shettleston, City/County Glasgow city/Lanark
Jane Potter age 27 District Bridgeton, City/County Glasgow/ Lanark

Assuming the last 2 Janes are Potters by marriage as they haven't shown up before I think you have the choice of the first 2. Just checked the 1881 census and there's only one Jane and she's one of the Lanark ones.

Don't know if this helps any or not!!

Joseph isn't on any of the above censuses.

I've had a look at the Wigtown Jane on the 1851 census and her father was an agricultural labourer from Ireland. It's a long shot but perhaps Jane and Joseph went to Ireland for a few years.

Hi Hollyd

Thanks for that, the Jane Potter from County Wigtown can't be my Jane if she is on the 1871 Scottish census as Joseph Jnr. was born 1865 in Liverpool to Jane Rowell late Mc.Goven formerly Potter..
Maybe they were not married at all and just said they were?
I am beginning to wonder if they were avoiding the census for some reason.
I wonder if it could be Mc.Goven not Mc.Gaven or Mac NOT Mc.
Just a thought but maybe they have made a mistake on the birth cert for Joseph as to his mothers name. I have two certificates with the wrong information on, so I know it's possible.
i appreciate your help

Thanks April

Sorry forgot Joseph Junior's date of birth.
Nothing coming up on the various spellings of McGaven either.
Think I'd better go to bed now

Hollyd

Today on Family Search I found the births and christenings of some of the children of Joseph and Mary, the oldest of which is John Joseph Rowell which says he was christened 26th of May 1890 Liverpool, but born in BUTE SCOTLAND on the 11th May .1890.


If this is his christening.

Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Baptisms, 1813-1906 about John Joseph Rowell
Name: John Joseph Rowell
Birth Date: 11 May abt 1890
Baptism Date: 26 May 1890
Parish: Liverpool St Peter
Father's Name: Joseph Rowell
Mother's name: Mary Rowell


Is this not his birth?

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about John Joseph Rowell
Name: John Joseph Rowell
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1890
Registration district: West Derby
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 273

There is a tree on A***** that has this

Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921 about Joseph Rowell
Name: Joseph Rowell, joiner
Age: Full Age
Marriage Date: 13 Aug 1856
Parish: Liverpool St Jude
Spouse's Name: Jane Feddon
Father's Name: John Rowell, joiner
Spouse Father's Name: Robert Feddon


Date
13 Aug 1856
Location
st judes West Derby, Lancashire, England
Description
in St. Judes Churct W. Derby to Jane Feddon - lived Edge Mount. Witnesses Charles Duffy & Isabelle Feddon

There was a daughter, Jane Ann born in 1860.

Mary Jane's mother was a Jane Lindon 1828. No marriage found. She was a widow by 1861. Her husband was Francis Nelson.

Then Jane Potter Gaven was Joseph and William's mother. No marriage found.


Unfortunately I have no idea how accurate this is.

- just following up on Alvigal's posting:

Marriage Apr-May-Jun 1851 Liverpool

Jane Lindon
Francis Nelson

and 1851 census:

Name: Francis Nelson
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane Nelson
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Preston, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: Vauxhall
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: Dale Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 1n

Household schedule number: 45
Piece: 2179
Folio: 437
Page Number: 12
Household Members:
Name Age
Francis Nelson 30
Jane Nelson 20
Emma Elizabeth Nelson 2
Mary Jane Nelson 5 Mo <<<<<<<<<<

Presumably Jane Nelson (widow) and Mary Jane can be found in 1861?