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There has been many discussions about gypsy travellers on GR . If you do an advanced search and put Gypsy in it comes up with all previous threads.
You can also google Bill Lee's travellers tales
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Hi Quinsgran :-)
I spoke to my Mum earlier today and would you believe she can remember running through the Gypsy Caravan section of Manchester’s Wythenshawe Estate as a child [early 1940s]. Her Mum Hannah Lee loved buying lots of trinkets from the Gypsies. Hannah I know read tea leaves for guests. Wonder if this was an influence from her paternal side??
Thank you for the web suggestions – It’s all grist for the Mill – But I must say I am fascinated that this may be a possibility. I have read that some Gypsy Families changed there surnames….did the Surname of Lee at any time change? Could this be why I am finding it hard to locate them with more substantial information? I am still interested to hearing others thoughts on the Census takings for Edward and his family…I am more than sure it is them in the 1871 census…..but where were they in 1861 census [?] and where did they vanish [?] leaving Edward on his own…..any one out there willing to try and find Charles and Ann in the 1861 Census – the above posts are a guide line….any questions just ask…..Its a mystery all right.
Cheers – Steve Campbell ;-)
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Sorry, I must be getting old or sillier but the 1871 you give fits fine with the 1861 I gave didnt it? How many Ann Lees living in Newington were born in Hunton, Hants? And the two children, Charles and Sarah match with your 1871 ??
Going on from the wedding cert and Charles being a stonemason?? That was a very skilled job requiring an apprenticeship. May be his job was enhanced a bit by Edward?
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Hi Heather :-)
It gets a little confusing....I go cross eyed with it - It isn't an age thing at all.
The 1871 Census that corresponds with the 1861 Census is for a seperate family - whilst all the information regarding Ann matches I totally agree - but the biggest fact is that Edward Lee should be present as a baby. Edward writes he was born in Walworth.
Comparing the families in the 1871 Census as follows ->
1871 England Census.
Civil Parish: St Mary Newington.
Ecc Parish: All Saints.
County/Island: London.
Country: England.
Reg District: St Saviour Southwark.
Sub Reg District: St Peter Walworth.
Address: 14 Little Park Road.
Household Members:
Ann Lee aged 26 [?] - Head - Widow - Occupation: Hawker - Born: Hants [Hampshire] Halton.
Charles Lee aged 22 - Son - Occupation: Hawker - Born: Surrey Newington.
* Edward Lee aged 1- Grand Son - Born: Newington - Surrey - London.
Sarah Lee aged 23 - Daughter [?] - Occupation: Charwoman - Born: Surrey Newington.
1871 England Census
about Charles Lee
Name: Charles Lee
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Brixton, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Lambeth St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Brixton
Town: Brixton
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 215
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Lee 53
Charles Lee 23
Emma Lee 11
Rosa Nath 18
Indeed Edward more than likely was gilding the lily when he wrote his father was a Stonemason - as you say it is a very skilled job and would have required an apprenticeship.
Cheers - Steve.
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Hi All :-)
Of to bed here in Aus....It was near 3am when I got to bed last night [Oh dear].
I have just been reading a few other posts in regards to manners etc and that short answers can seem of the cuff - coming across as rude.
Please - To all who have replied to this thread during the past few days I am more than thankful you have taken the time and effort in helping me - I appreciate it immensly - anything is possible with Family Trees and sometimes requires incredible lateral thinking. The Lee family started to blur for me and any thoughts most welcome for any information I just may have missed or overlooked. All avenues a possibility ;-)
Good Night zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Cheers - Steve Campbell.
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Hi Steve.
Interesting that your mum recalls being at the gypsy site when she was young. So it look like a possibility.
You asked about gypsies changing names. I know there were Smith gypsies who used the middle name Lee.
Looking for a Smith would be a bigger nightmare.
Did you do advanced search on GR as I suggested entering gypsy traveller. Another member Cheryl is tracing her LEE gypsy family
Google
Was Your Ancestor A Gypsy
Go to 1881 census and enter LEE hawker.
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Still dont follow Steve, as the 1871 ann is from hants, as is the ann in the 1861 - the other 1871 ann is from Brixton.
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Hi Heather :-)
Below are the Census information for 2 families.
The first 2 are the 1861 & 1871 census.
Father as John - Mother as Ann - Ann is born in Hunton Hampshire [in both census takings]....yes there is a son Charles & daughter Sarah - but they are also accounted for in the *1871 census.
The last census is also for *1871 - Ann Lee born in Halton Hampshire - son Charles & daughter Sarah grandson Edward Lee as a child.
They are seperate families - The first Lee family of 1861 I agree look they are the likeliest to be mine....but void themselves out with being in the 1871 census - so mine are still unaccounted for in 1861 and earlier :-(
........................................................................................................................
1st Lee Family 1861 Census.
1861 England Census about Ann Lee
Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 172
Household Members: Name Age
John Lee – b:c1821 – Sittingbourne - Kent
40
Ann Lee – b:c1819 – Hunton - Hampshire
42
Charles Lee - b:c1849 – Brixton.
12
Sarah Lee - b:c1856 – Brixton.
5
Emma Lee – b:c1860 – Brixton.
1
First Lee Family 1871 Census.
1871 England Census about Charles Lee
Civil parish: Lambeth St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Brixton
Town: Brixton
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 215
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Lee b:c1818 – Hunton – Hampshire.
53
Charles Lee – b:c1848 – Brixton.
23
Emma Lee – b:c1860 – Brixton.
11
Rosa Nath – b:c1853 – Brixton.
18
.......................................................................................................................
Second Lee Family 1871 Census.
'Mine'.
1871 England Census about Ann Lee
Name: Ann Lee
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Halton, Hampshire, England
Civil parish: St Mary Newington
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: St Peter Walworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Lee b:c1845 [?] – Halton – Hampshire.
26
Charles Lee – b:c1849 – Newington – Surrey.
22
* Edward Lee b:c1870 – Newington – Surrey.
1
Sarah Lee – b:c1848 – Newington – Surrey.
23
.........................................................................................................................
Hopefully I have explained myself clearer - It gets confusing ;-)
Cheers - Steve.
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Hi All :-)
I am so tired and am heading of to bed – but I am excited by what I just found.
James Lee b:c1811 a Baker born in Berdmondsey Surrey his wife Ann Lee b:c1815 in Alton Hampshire.
There Children as follows.
James Lee b:c1835 – Southwark Surrey
Mary Ann Lee b:c1838 – Southwark Surrey
Charles Lee b:c1848 – Newington Surrey
I think the 1871 census which has Ann widowed and age wrong should be written as Abt 56 years of age [and born in Alton Hampshire and not Halton Hampshire]. And [as I thought – and has been pointed out] Charles & Sarah are a married couple and not siblings – Edward Lee was there son.
The challenge now is to find them in the 1861 census - any takers in seeking them out ;-)
Below are them in the 1841 & 1851 censuses.
I would love others opinions – I am so tired it is near 2:30am in the morning here – but I’m happy it looks to be them [?]
Cheers – Steve.
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1851 Census
Name: James Lees
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1810
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Bemondsey, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Newington
Ecclesiastical parish: Walworth St Peter
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View image
Registration district: Newington
Sub-registration district: St Peter Walworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 260
Household Members: Name Age
James Lees b:c1810 - Bermondsey
41
Ann Lees b:c1815 – Alton - Hampshire
36
James Lees – b:c1835 - Southwark
16
Mary Ann Lees b:c1838 - Southwark
13
Charles Lees b:c1848 - Newington
3
...............................................................................................................
1841 Census
1841 England Census about James Lee
Name: James Lee
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Gender: Male
Where born: Surrey, England
Civil parish: St George The Martyr
Hundred: Southwark
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
View image
Registration district: St George the Martyr Southwark
Sub-registration district: Kent Road
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
James lee b:c1811 - Baker
Ann Lee b:c1816
James Lee b:c1835
Mary Lee b:c1838
..........................................................................................................................
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