Genealogy Chat

Hi,
Can anyone help me what to do when deciding who is the right person when i have two to choose from, and not a lot of information.
My GG grandfather was John wellington Bathgate, he was born at sea about 1830 in the west indies ( 2 census records), on 1841 census he lived with his father Simon Bathgate and siblings Mather, mary, james, Frances.. The other record i have of simon is on Johns 2nd marraige to jane reid, it states johns father as Simon deceased ( soldier) and mother mary duffy ( but this is crossed out) on johns first marriage to margaret young, it doesnt give johns parents names. On johns death cert, it has been noted by his son in law that johns father was samuel bathgate, coal miner deceased.
On the 1841 census it shows John as being born in Ireland along with Mary ( who may have been johns twin as she is the same age) marther, james and Frances who was born in Tranent east lothian.
I have tried to get frances birth certificate on scot people to no avail, i have also tried to find birth marriage & death certificates on everyone from the 1841 census but they all seem to have dropped of the edge of the world except John who married Margaret in tranent 10 years later.
So what i really would like some help on is finding how i know what simon/ simeon bathgate is johns father when i cant find any information on him past the 1841 census??.
Any help would be very much appreciated as im new to this and this has really stumped me!!.
Thank you Tina

1871 Scotland Census

Name: John Bathgate
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relationship: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Indies, At Sea W
Registration Number: 722
Registration district: Tranent
Civil parish: Tranent
County: East Lothian
Address: 2 North Street
Occupation: Coal Miner
ED: 7
Household schedule number: 46
Line: 13
Roll: CSSCT1871_173
Household Members: Name Age
John Bathgate 41
Christina Bathgate 10
George Bathgate 8
James Bathgate 6




Source Citation: Parish: Tranent; ED: 7; Page: 9; Line: 13; Roll CSSCT1871_173; Year: 1871.

1861 Scotland Census

Name: John Bathgate
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Margaret
Gender: Male
Where born: Sea, On
Registration Number: 722
Registration district: Tranent
Civil parish: Tranent
Town: Tranent
County: East Lothian
Address: Church Street
Occupation: Coal-miner
ED: 1
Household schedule number: 24
Line: 3
Roll: CSSCT1861_135
Household Members: Name Age
John Bathgate 31
Margaret Bathgate 30
Simon Bathgate 8
John Bathgate 3
Christina Bathgate 8 Mo




Source Citation: Parish: Tranent; ED: 1; Page: 5; Line: 3; Roll CSSCT1861_135; Year: 1861.

Sorry cant help with Simon...Irish Records a pain for me.

Hi alan

Thank you,

yes i have all the census for john and his two marrige cert and his death cert ( the only thing i have missing from him is his birth cert).

Its Simon who is giving me the nightmare, i cant find him on anything other than the 1841 census ( with john), and i have two possibilities as to him being johns father but how do i know for sure which one when i cant trace him ( other than the 1841 census)???

Tina

I'm wondering if this is John's bro James - his wife appears to be Cath Hogg.
There's only a submitted marr in the IGI, and a submitted birth for Simon.
James appears in the census at Gladsmuir thru 1881, and Cath thru 1901.
It would seem worthwhile getting his d.rego to see if he's yours.
Gladsmuir is the next parish to Tranent - for a map showing parishes, see:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/gazetteer/


Piece: SCT1851/708 Place: Gladsmuir -East Lothian Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Gladsmuir Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Gladsmuir
Folio: 0 Page: 13 Schedule: 50
Address: -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
BATHGATE James Head M M 22 Coal Miner England - Portsmouth
BATHGATE Catherine Wife M F 22 East Lothian - Gladsmuir
BATHGATE Simon Son U M 4m East Lothian - Gladsmuir

1841 census ages are rounded down after the age of 15, sometimes, but not always.

Someone age 19 could be 15 on the census . That is why its assumed people could be twins

mgnv,

thank you for your info, i will def try and get johns death cert to see if it is his brother.

Best wishes Tina

quinsgran,

Thank you for this infor ( i didnt know that), My goodness there seems to be so much to learn!!!.

Tina

Piece: SCT1841/722 Place: Tranent -East Lothian Enumeration District: 9
Civil Parish: Tranent (Part Of) Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 6 Page: 1
Address: Church Street
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
BATHGATE Simon M 41 Coal Miner Ireland
BATHGATE Douglas F 19 Ireland David entered then crossed out
BATHGATE John M 12 Ireland
BATHGATE Mary F 12 Ireland
BATHGATE James M 12 Ireland
Page: 6/2 BATHGATE Frances F 8m Unknown

[Douglas is italicized - i.e., FreeCEN's sign of an unsure transcription]


Ancestry has the female Douglas as Mather, and James as a=15.
It's odd to place a child out of age order (but not unkbown) - it could be that James is a nephew,
or there could be triplets, or Mary might have a real twin and an Irish twin,

Note Quinsgran's rounding down comments only apply to adults (i.e., 15+), as she notes.

MGNV.

Now im really confused!!
Who is douglas?? and who is david??

do you think i may have the wrong John on this census?, i know they dont always put down the correct country , but i know for sure on two census for john ( with his wife along side) that he was born at sea in the west indies, so could i be looking at the wrong john??,
I have been stuck on this for a few months now and cant seem to get a break through,

oh dear what a head ache!!!.

Thank you again for coming back to me.

Tina

It's clear that one and maybe two of these transcriptions are wrong. Now it's not really my place to say how you should spend your credits, and it is two pages, but I would definitely want to see the originals for myself so I could make up my own mind.

I do think this is your John, incidentally.

MGNV,

i have been on scotlands people and got 1851, 1861,1881 census for james, it appears ( if this is the right james ) that he was married to Cath hogg on 20th dec 1850 ( marrige cert).
i also have his death cert in 1890 and his parents were down as simon Bathgate ( deceased) and sarah bathgate ( deseased) maiden name unknown, so i tried for a marriage of simon and sarah and came up with nothing and i tried for a death of sarah and came up with nothing and a death of simon ( which came up with him being married to agnes spence).
his son simon registered his death, but i have no proof that simon ( my johns dad) had a son called simon as i only have 1841 census and his name isnt on it.
i may well get the original census for 1841 just to make sure there is no mistakes on the one i have a copy of.
Thank you again for coming back and for all your advise.

Tina

Where and when did Simon h/o Agnes die - was he a widower?

im not sure on agnes death i havent looked at that yet, but i cant find a death for simon, so im not sure if it is a second marraige or just someone else ( it didnt state he was a widower on it) so silly me didnt pay the extra 5 credits to get the copy).

Tina

Re Post: Today(19/8/09) at 13:45 "his son simon registered his death,"
Can you post full details from this d.rego, please

Hi RE simon death cert-

Simon Bathgate - Retired ( Farmer -- not sure on this though?)
Married to Agnes spence.
Diednov 12th 1875 , aged 70 Aldelic house, poplar lane, leith
Father Simon Bathgate - Land ????? Deceased
Mother margaret Bathgate Nee Bleugh deceased
Paralyis ???
S bathgate present ( son)

District of south leith county of edinburgh


sorry i cant deciper some of the writing this is the best i can make out.
Tina

Hi ,

im going to be away from my comp for 1 week as of today so if i dont reply you know why.

Tina

I don't think we should pursue the following line on this thread, but what do I know.

Anyway, one possible line of inquiry into John's birth and Simon's background is his army service.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp

It would seem that records for, say, 1816-1839 are really ordered by regiment.
Assuming Simon's West Indies trip was army related would imply Simon was regular army (as distinct from militia, yeomanry, territorial)
Presumably, one could narrow down the regiments to those in the windies in 1830 +/-5.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=23
2. Regimental Registers of Births, 1761-1924
The regimental registers of births, 1761-1924 are indexed: the index gives the regiment and place of birth of children born to the wives of serving soldiers, if they were attached to the regiment. If you have some knowledge of offspring or areas of service, this can be an easy way to narrow the field.

The index can be seen at The National Archives but the records are held by the General Register Office, and are not on open access. To actually identify the correct child, parent and regiment, you may have to buy more than one certificate from the GRO.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=31


I must admit I never knew one could buy b.certs from the GRO pre-1837, but it seems there are 3 series for the earlier years:
Chaplin's returns, Army registers, and the Corfu occupation force. The first 2 potentially apply, but I don't know where the indices are. I don't think there's any online for 1830ish.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_176232.pdf


A full set, including recent overseas events, are available at Greater Manchester County Record Office, Birmingham Central Library, Bridgend Reference and Information Library and Plymouth Central Library. The overseas indexes can also be viewed at the National Archives at Kew.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_176534.pdf

MGNV,

Thank you for this i will certainly look into this and see if i can find army records for simon and or birth cert for john,.

i have tried on the national records for simon being in the army, but as i have no leads to know this for sure i sort of gave up, but i think i may have to carry on this lead of thinking to know for sure if he was and maybe crack the link.

Thank you once again for all your suggestions which are very helpful to a novice.

Best wishes Tina

Tina - I pm'ed a poster on another thread, and he checked Find My Past for me. FMP do have the 3 pre-1837 army BMDs, so if you spot someone offering to do FMP lookups, you might contact them.