Genealogy Chat

Thank you once again to each of you for all your help.

Wouldn't you know it I have now found out child lived but might have been sickly at birth so that might solve my query

Iona

Janet

have you looked at the census image on the 1911 census for your great grandparents?

Thye have to say how many children born, how many living and how many died.


That could give you a lead to what happened to her.


It costs 30 credits to look at the census image, and 60 credits cost £6.95




sylvia

Janet

Have you looked for the death in the qtr. BEFORE the birth registration? A death has to be registered within a few days whereas you have 6 weeks to register a birth.

Sometimes if a family is grieving they may register the death and then realise afterwards that the birth needs registering too, so you sometimes find the death registered first.

Kath. x

I think you may have resolved one of my mysteries. My grandfather had a sister born 1888. I know she was born as theres a birth certificate for her but dispite years of hunting, no death, marriage or mention of her ever again.

My grandfathers military attestation gives details of all his living family (even his brother in France who he'd never met) so I assume she was dead by 1905.

I wonder if she was stillborn and great gran registered the birth but forgot to register the death?

Thank you to all who replied.

I am begging to think that the person I am researching might have been premature and this caused problems later in life as we have a rumour that he spent some time in a special hospital. I will order the birth certificate and take it from there. I do know that he did not die until the 1980's but can't find a death certificate yet. It is possible also from a family story that he died abroad. Anyway wish me luck and thank you to all that replied

Regards
Iona

Joan - right abt 21 d to rego birth (although I didn't know that then). In SCT, one also has 8 d to rego a death, and the minister at a regular marr had 3 d to rego the marr (or mail the rego).

In ENG-WAL one has 42 d to rego a stillbirth.

Actually, I don't know what the time limit is in the only jurisdiction (BC) where I ever had responsibility for rego'ing a birth. The nurse came round and handed out forms, and my wife bought a stamp(s) from the candy-striper, and I'd mailed the regos off before my wife even left the hospital.

The 1926 English Act repeals another Act that I've not been able to access:
The Burial and Registration Acts (Doubts removal) Act, 1881
One wonders what it says.

I think the easiest way for Iona to find out the answer to the original question is to ring up any registrar and ask them.

I'd lay money on it simply being that a name hadn't been decided on.

Kath. x

BrinsleyS - your statement that "the rules on registering Still born births were less clear" is a bit of an understatement. In fact there were no rules about registering stillbirths, nor were there any about a vast array of other things that weren't registered.

Admitedly, it's a bit hard to document a thing that isn't there.

The best I can do is quote from the Registration (Amendment) Act, 1874
http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/View?path=Browse/Legislation%20(by%20date)&active=yes&mno=4055

Registration of Births
1. In the case of every child born alive after the commencement of this Act, it shall be the duty of...

Burials
18. A person shall not wilfully bury or procure to be buried the body of any deceased child as if it were still-born. Etc...

The latter section is an indication that stillbirths were treated differently, and liveborn child shouldn't be treated in that way. (Commonly stillbirths would be buried in any convenient open grave, typically unconnected with the family.)

Hi, usually births here in Ireland with male/female mean that birth is registered before name is given.
Still birth registertion only came into force here about 12 years ago. I had a stillborn baby here in 1980 and was told that she had been baptisted but only after going the F.O.I. act last year was she registered by me.
If both parents are dead next of kin can register a still birth and only family can get certs which are kept in Roscomman not in Dublin.
Lily.

mgnv

Well done with your research but you are quoting legislation that came in force in 1927.

This particular birth was in 1919, whem the rules on registering Still born births were less clear.

In order to register a stillbirth, one must:

deliver to the registrar a 'written certificate that the child was not born alive, signed by a registered medical practitioner or certified midwife who was in attendance at the birth or who has examined the body of such child; or

(ii) make a declaration in the prescribed form to the effect that no registered medical practitioner or certified midwife was present at the birth, or has examined the body, or that his or her certificate cannot be obtained and that the child was not born alive.

Sect 7 of: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/1926Act.htm

Incidentally, in ENG-WAL, one has 42 d to rego a stillbirth.

The problem here is that two posters have stated that it may have been a still birth.Two of us think that is incorrect.
We need to find a reliable authority.

1927 is the date stillbirth registration was started in England and Wales.

http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files2/family-records/leaflet-s1.pdf
gives the main records held by GROS:
Register of still-births (from 1939) Compiled by district registrars for still-births occurring in Scotland. These are not open for the public and we issue extracts only in exceptional circumstances.

Incidentally, in Scotland, one has 21 days to rego a stillbirth.

Back to the original question - the law required that one rego a birth within 42 days, but there was no law saying when you had to name the child. In fact, in England-Wales, there was an expectation that some people wouldn't take what they told the registrar too seriously, and they would hold it was what one called the kid at baptism that mattered. Consequently, provision was made that one could take a baptismal certificate to the registrar within one year of birth and have the kid's real name noted without further charge. English-Welsh b.certs have a special column for this

Steven
I am getting conflicting results in Google.
I need to find the 1874 act of parliament.
edit
Best so far
http://www.fergys.co.uk/Blogs/BMD.php
Registration of Births

1, In the case of every child born >>alive<<< after the commencement of this Act, it shall be the duty of the father and mother of the child, and in default of the father and mother, of the occupier of the house in which to his knowledge the child is born, and of each person present at the birth, and of the person having charge of the child, to give to the registrar, within forty-two days next after such birth, and in the presence of the registrar to sign the register.

Perhaps family stories said that the twins were stillborn, but as far as I am aware if the births were in England or Wales and registered as births and deaths then the babies must have lived - if only for a few seconds.

Have you actually bought the death certificates? What is given as cause of death?

To go back to the poster's question - entering the birth as "male" or "female" usually just means that a name has not been chosen when the birth was registered.

EDIT - I see from your previous post that you don't have the certificates. I would definitely buy one of the death certificates and see what it says for the cause of death.

Kath. x

Hi Jim, it was in Woolwich, England. Maybe I am wrong. I have not order this certificates yet.

Births Mar 1922 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Baker Kathleen Rutherford Woolwich 1d 2089
Baker Margaret Rutherford Woolwich 1d 2089

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Deaths Mar 1922 (>99%)
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Baker Kathleen 0 Woolwich 1d 1776
Baker Margaret 0 Woolwich 1d 1776

Hi Steven
Was this in England or Wales?
I have been trying to find a decent website to explain it.
edit
so far I seem to have got it wrong!

Stillbirths and Adoptions No provision was made for registering stillbirths until 1874, when a new law required a death certificate before burying stillborn children. Since 1927 all stillbirths (any birth where the child never took a breath) are recorded in the Register of Stillbirths, which is not available to the public.

Jim, my great grandparents had twin daughters and they were stillborn in 1922. They named the twin daughters and registered them for birth and death certificates.

My limited knowledge is that only babies who took a breath were registered. So stillbirths before 1927 were not recorded.
edit
Stillbirths. Stillborn children were not registered prior to 1927. ... exchange forum for information on civil registration records in the UK. ...
www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/civilreg.html

The child could have been still born - separate and private still born registration did not come in until 1927 - or the child was weak and not expected to live. How long after the birth was the registration, and who was the informant?

We have several birth certificates from Dublin for my wife's grandfather's family, and all those born in the Rotunda Hospital were registered a few days later by a member of the hospital staff as Male or Female, which seemed to be the routine at the time. All were healthy babies and lived to a ripe old age.