Genealogy Chat

In 1857, when my ancestor was 31 years old, he left England and within 9 months of settling in Ontario, Canada he owned a butcher shop. (He and his father both had that occupation in England.)

This ancestor's uncle settled in a neighbouring Ontario area nine years prior to my ancestor's arrival. Do you think my ancestor could have been told of the opportunity to buy or set up a shop in the town, or do you think once he arrived he did so? If he knew of the opportunity, perhaps that's why he left England.

I am interested in hearing if others have had similar experiences. (Or, just your opinions.) Thank you.

Im sure his relative would have tipped him off :)

Hi Heather. I had quite a few ancestors leave England and Ireland. Besides the usual famines and looking for a better life, it really would be nice to know what led them to Canada. Thank you for your opinion. :)

Can you find any wills for these men? Any correspondence. Would they have belonged to local businessmens associations in Canada? All worth looking into.

Sounds very romantic, but cant see how someone over here would know of such an opportunity.

Most who emigrated didn't have a position to go to, they just believed that the grass was that bit greener on the other side.

OP has said the uncle was there already.

Thank you for your responses. I was up all night (couldn't sleep) and finally went to bed just after posting my reply to Heather. It is now midday here, and we have to go shopping. :(

I will be back here as soon as I can to read your posts. Sorry for not staying around the first time, and now again. I wish I lived where most of you do. :( It would make corresponding so much easier. Thank you for your replies, Brinsleys and Heather.

Hi Lisa,

Well, one thing to check would be if he took over an existing business, or was it a brand new one. If the former, I can see that he might have had some idea of the owner intending to retire, thru age or health reasons say. However, 9 months is a bit of a wait.

I think the most likely thing is he came over knowing his uncle thought it a good life, and that he went to work for his uncle so he could learn the Canadian aspects of the trade, and while learning, kept his eye out for an opening one way or the other.

Well I think thats what Lisa and I meant ?- uncle found a good living, did a bit of investigation and probably helped his nephew on arrival to set up shop. No real mystery?

By the way where did the ancestor travel from? Many thousands were having their passages paid for by parishes eager to get rid of people to Canada during the agricultural revolution, when little work was available in the countryside. I think I read in Norfolk alone 35,000 were sent to Canada during the period.

Brinsleys, I would think most of my ancestors left for that very reason (grass being greener). In addition to Canadian officials posting information about the land (which I know they did); my ancestors may have heard of other's successes in North America and wanted their own improvements. As far as I can tell, only this one family came to North America after another family member was already there. Thank you for your thoughts. It is appreciated. :)

I have 15 ancestors who left England and Ireland. I can find only two living in the States for a few years; the rest seem to have immediately settled in Ontario.

Heather, after all this time of researching, it never once crossed my mind that my ancestor could have lived with his uncle and family. Since my grandfather never mentioned the other branch to his family, and the other branch didn't appear to mention mine, I just assumed they didn't contact each other.

I will have to contact my distant cousin (the "uncle's" side) to see if she knows of anything.

I have not looked into wills in Canada; I will have to see if that is possible. I will also check for any business organizations.

James' uncle was a farmer, so they probably didn't have too much in common as far as occupations.

I have read that Canadian officials put up posters (odd, don't you think?), with incentives to come to Canada. I didn't realize English parishes were also encouraging immigration. My ancestor was born in Essex, but lived in London shortly before his departure.

I cannot find my ancestor's immigration record. There is one record, which is dated one month after my ancestor's got married, with the same names as my ancestors, but the husband's age is incorrect (by several years) and it states they were Irish. This voyage was from England to New York.

I know my ancestor was married in England in March 1857. I have found a book that states "...proprietor of the Baldwin Street Market, known as No. 1 Baldwin Street, first established on Yonge Street in 1857, and moved to his present location [Baldwin] in 1880..." So, within 9 months he had set up the shop. And, now rereading the paragraph, it sounds like he set up the shop, rather than taking it over from someone.

Thank you for your help, Heather. I get so focused on facts that I don't tend to think of other ideas. I will start checking out your suggestions. :)

PS I have an old photograph of whom I believe is this ancestor. I took it to our local museum and it was dated to 1869-71 and was a "calling card." A bit odd to have a very nice looking calling card for a butcher. I think so, anyway. [The gentleman in the photo was a bit distinguished, not the calling card!]

Wonderful stuff :) If he had a calling card - Id have thought he would have joined some associations and been mixing with other business people. It may well be he had just a stall to begin with - I keep thinking of the series Deadwood - which was fascinating - just a saloon, then the stalls set up and then as the town prospered, the stall owners building shops. Council set up, law department set up, fire service - all based on the real development of the town. There is a website you can google to find the story of Deadwood (the real one :)) Oh, found it

http://www.deadwood.net/info.htm

Check out the history of the town where your chap had his shop. Local council records and stuff - would be very interesting. You should be able to find the local records office and email them with the facts you have.

Local history assoc would be a goldmine as well. I suspect, Lisa, that early Canadian life would be very similar to Australia, and that these businessmen became town dignitaries, depending on the size of the town.

What about an obituary? Any luck there?

Ozi.

Those of our family who migrated to Australia (well Victoria, it was then) did write home and encourage other family members to migrate. They entered various partnerships, worked for each other and helped each other buy property, so we know they were in contact before they arrived.

Diane

In Norfolk archives there are some supposed letters from Canadian immigrants writing home to the local newspapers saying what a wonderful life they have now in Canada. Of course, nowdays we would all be sceptics and realise this was just a form of advertising, but I dare say back in the mid 19th century, it was just the encouragement needed to go off to the new provinces :)

So sorry for the delay in replying. Thank you all for taking an interest.

Heather, the "town's" name is Toronto. While it is an immense city now, it wasn't always so large. (There were less than 38,000 in 1857; probably large for English standards, but not necessarily North American.) When my mum and dad met each other's families (1940's), they found out the families knew each other in the 1880's. Imagine their surprise to hear the stories from long ago.

Thank you very much for the information about Deadwood. I actually have a fascination with the Old West, so it will be fun to read about Deadwood.

I have spent so much time looking for old records about Toronto, but not necessarily with some of the things you have suggested. It will be great fun to try your ideas. Thank you so much for your suggestions.

Ozi, I don't believe there is any information about my ancestor (and town dignitaries). I've just about found all there is with him. However, there is a bit published about his uncle's family, so I will try searching for more of their information; it could provide some answers!

Another ancestor died in 1928, at the age of 105. I have a copy of her obituary; it was quite lengthy. Among other things, it mentions her 50+ (75?) year life in Toronto. Since James (the ancestor's name, in case I didn't mention it) lived in Toronto over 50 years, he too may have something written. Once again, I had never thought to look, as I assumed no one would have interest. Thank you very much for your thoughts as well. :)

Diane, because my ancestors were in Canada by 1872, we don't have any letters with family back home in Ireland or England. I don't believe any siblings followed my ancestors to Ontario. With the exception of James' uncle, I don't believe my ancestors came over after other's in the family had.

I do have one ancestor who lived in New Jersey for a few years and then relocated to Toronto c1855. He had a very uncommon surname and there were two other people in Ontario with that surname, from the same part of Ireland, arriving in Ontario around the same time that my ancestor arrived in New Jersey. There are several descendants now trying to determine if we are related.

Diane, you are quite lucky to know your families history! It is one thing to find facts and figures, quite another to find interesting, personal details!
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I hope the fires have calmed down now? We don't hear anything about what is going on in other countries. I am continuing to think of all of those affected by the devastation. :(
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Diane and Ozi, you actually may have heard about my Irish ancestor (with the uncommon surname I mentioned above). We have not yet found a connection, but we believe my ancestor, John Ovens, could have been related to Major John Ovens. Thank you Diane, as well, for your thoughts with this thread.

DET, the uncle actually (probably) lived too far away from Toronto to provide the actual livestock, but he easily could have been instrumental in helping James, as his family was highly regarded in the surrounding areas (according to one newspaper report I found). As I previously mentioned, I certainly will try googling the uncle's information. Thank you very much for your thoughts.
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It is quite interesting reading everyone's family information. I don't know too much about English life in the 1800's (and less about Australia) so this helps paint a picture of what went on so long ago.

Heather, you're most likely correct, life in Canada could have been wonderful, but considering the climate in some parts of Canada, I would imagine the first winter was a real eye-opener, especially if no one had mentioned the "little bit of cold and snow that sometimes occurs in winter". ;)