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Hi Jude

The 1960 passenger list has nothing to do with this family. I think the only reason Reggie posted it was because you mentioned a Geoffrey Curtis........who is in fact Gary R Curtis.

Reggie I did read the info albeit briefly. The incoming in 1960 has a Winifred with Geoffrey Brian and Ellen and ROY - who is Percy because he's not on the Ancestry record that I DO have access to....


Jude

For the sake of clarity, on an 1960 outgoing passenger list Percy Curtis (a lecturer) was travelling with his wife Winifred and two children Brian and Geoffrey. Their address had been in Maidstone, Kent. They were all UK citizens.

There was an Ellen Curtis immediately above them - she was a single woman born in 1886 and was from an address in Northants. She was a Rhodesian citizen.

(Have just edited to add nationalities)

EDIT AGAIN: This is obviously the same family as on the 1960 incoming but Percy is called Roy on that (same man by occupation and date of birth) and Ellen is stated as a UK citizen.

Incoming 05 May 1960

ROY 18.12.14 Lecturer Mech Eng
Winifred 12.02.20
Brian 17.09.51
Geoffrey 09.11.54

All of 54 Church Street Tovil Nr Maidstone

Ellen 24.08.86 Welingboro Northants

So it seems Percy is Roy is Percy :-S

These people have nothing to do with Pierre's family, just posting info to prove elimination:

The man on the 1960 voyages:

England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Roy Percy W Curtis
Birth Date: 18 Dec 1914 - as per shipping list.
Date of Registration: Dec 1975
Age at Death: 61
Registration District: Chatham
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 16
Page: 0481

MC thanks - as I say I did post when there was NO info whatsoever.....will leave it to you guys now..rare night off with the hubby...takeaway and a carmanere. Catch up in the morning :-)

Enjoy it Jude!

Yes (or should that be no) Reggie - I couldn't find the ship this morning...lots of other castles though.....

MC...new takeaway open near us...opening offer of £5 off on orders over £20 and when they delivered they'd given us freebies as well... now bloated to the extreme... :-)

I have a suspicion that this may be the record referred to:

Britain: outbound passenger lists leaving UK 1890-1960 - person transcript

Name: Miss W A JONES
Date of departure: 21 February 1947
Port of departure: Southampton
Destination port: Durban (Port Natal)
Destination country: South Africa
Date of Birth: 1915 (calculated from age)
Age: 32
Marital Status:
Sex: Female
Occupation: Nursing Sister <<<<

Ship: WINCHESTER CASTLE
Official Number: 162489
Master's name: Captain W Pace
Steamship Line: Union Castle Line
Where bound: East Africa, Africa
Square feet:
Registered tonnage: 20012.5
Passengers on voyage: 766

This lady was coming from an address in Glamorgan and had been a permanent resident of Wales.

Pierre - why are you so convinced that Winifred's maiden name was Jones? I've already posted the record of their marriage in South Africa which shows her surname as IVES.

I'd say this was much more likely to be Winifred's return to SA:

Britain: outbound passenger lists leaving UK 1890-1960 - person transcript

Name: Mrs W CURTIS
Date of departure: 6 November 1947
Port of departure: Southampton
Destination port: Cape
Destination country: South Africa
Date of Birth: 1913 (calculated from age)
Age: 34
Marital Status: (not recorded)
Sex: Female
Occupation: None

Ship: DURBAN CASTLE
Official Number: 166617
Master's name: Capt C G Gorririge
Steamship Line: Union-Castle Mail S/s Co.
Where bound: South Africa
Square feet:
Registered tonnage: 10435
Passengers on voyage: 534

She was accompanied by a 5 year old male child with the initials G R

Little info on the image but looks like they had been staying in Maelog, Belmont & Bangor.

Hi, I think the 1942 marriage in South Africa is correct for my Father. He was in Africa during WWII, I only knew of his RAF service in Tunisia, but it seems he must have been transferred to South Africa sometime in 1942? So based on the South African certificate that would make Winifreds last name as Ives. On my fathers 1951 wedding certificate it had divorcee Winifreds former surname noted as Jones. And the 1946 ships lists Durban to Southampton it seems Winifreds sons name would be Gary Curtis who seems to have been born in 1943?
Many thanks to you all, you are certainly very good at this, you have saved me a lot of time.

So it looks like I'm looking for a possible half brother called Gary Curtis. Who would be about 70 if still alive.

By the way my Dads family lived in Wallasey, Cheshire at the time. Another thing that ties in with the findings on Winifred Curtis. Thanks

Hello Pierre, if someone would be age 70 then it's highly likely that they're still alive, so caution and discretion must be observed.

I would recommend buying a copy of that SA marriage certificate. I could see how the names Ives and Jones could be confused if badly written and mis-transcribed.

Good idea. A copy of the SA wedding Certificate may shed more light on the names. Of course I'll exercise maximum discretion. I understand that my interest may not be welcome, even spurned. My intentions are not to cause any harm or unwanted intrusion.
Once again I can't thank you all enough for your help, it is much appreciated.

So we're back to my first post then?

Name: Winifred A Curtis
Birth Date: abt 1914
Age: 32
Port of Departure: Cape Town, South Africa
Arrival Date: 5 Apr 1946
Port of Arrival: Southampton, England
Ports of Voyage: Cape Town
Ship Name: Carnarvon Castle
Search Ship Database: View the 'Carnarvon Castle' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: Union-Castle Mail Steamship Company Ltd
Official Number: 148766

with three year old Gary R who was with her when she returned in 1947

Can't see any more trace of him

Jude

Just browsing other threads and JoonieCloonie posted this link

Not very much is accessible for South Africa ...

a site that will show deaths and divorces up to a certain point (and I'm afraid I don't know what that is) is

http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm300dl

click on

All Archives Repositories and National Registers of non-public records

and then search for names

The site is horribly temperamental in my experience, including just now. I did find divorce records in the 1970s though, after that it just kept giving me error messages.

If you go this site and type in Winifred and Curtis you get this

SELECT SOURCE VOLUME NO REFERENCE DESCRIPTION BEGIN DATE END DATE
WLD 0 42/1946 EX PARTE APPLICATION. WINIFRED CURTIS. 1946 1946

Which might explain why she travelled alone and back.....maybe she and your father had already parted....

Jude

Aha, I think Winifred WAS born as Jones and was previously married to an IVES, look on this link (from the source given by Jude, which I'd been searching high and low for!).

http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm30ddf0?201312071206249A63B769

DEPOT KAB
SOURCE CSC
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 2/1/1/1265
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 324
PART 1

DESCRIPTION ILLIQUID CASE. RESTITUTION OF CONJUGAL RIGHTS. LEONARD EDWARD IVES VERSUS WINIFRED ADELAIDE IVES, (BORN JONES).

STARTING 19340000
ENDING 19340000

That explains why her marriage to Ralph was in the name of Ives but why she was referred to as Jones on Ralph's second marriage.

In case this is relevant...

DEPOT TAB
SOURCE MHG
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 0
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 204/49
PART 1
DESCRIPTION IVES, LEONARD EDWARD
STARTING 19480000
ENDING 19480000
REMARKS SURVIVING SPOUSE THELMA MAUDE TIERNEY IVES (BORN RYAN).

Jude: You are correct, the first ship list with Arrival Date: 5 Apr 1946 you posted was the correct Winifred.

MarieCeleste: Amazing how you traced out the details that explains why Winifred had two previous surnames.

Thank you all, you have given me several links to carry on the search.

I compliment you all on your search skills and willingness to help me.


BTW: The kick off to all this was small suitcase of our family docs handed to me by my late brothers partner about 20 years ago. Then about 5 years ago I scanned all the documents, to have them handy on my hard drive.

FYI: After working since I was 15 I am retiring on 31st Dec 2013. I'll be 66 in April next year. So I'll have time to look into this side of my family tree going forward. Luckily my former profession as a Electronics / Radio Engineer equipped me with good computer skills. Although my people search skills are not anywhere as good as you Ladies & Gents.
:-)

Hi All
I am Kevin Raymond Thompson. My father was Gary Curtis. He was adopted and had the new surname Taylor. I was born Taylor and was adopted Thompson after Gary and my mother divorced. Gary passed away on the 31st of July 2019.. According to Gary , my grandfather was a Sargeant Ralph Curtis. He said that ralph was a navigator in the RAF. Gary said he was told that Ralph was based at Farnham Air Force Base. Seems he flew in the Shackleton or Halifax aircraft in Cape Town. Gary said that my grandmother went to the UK for a period of time , but returned on the Carnarvon Castle. He recounts a story she told that they were pursued by the Graff Spree in an attempt to sink the Carnarvon. Hope that even though this was some time ago , there is still someone watching.