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Hello Flip,

Still trying to sort out all the info I have......have had a look on Cheshire Wills but they only go up to 1940. Can you send me a reference and address where to apply regarding the probate for William Cross 1942.....I may send for the will.

Thanks again

Annx

Dee could be onto something with that 1881 family - Alfred Edward was reg June.80, there is a marriage in same quarter for William Cross to Eliza Ann Jepson. Florence was reg Sept.82, but no sign of them as a family in future census.

Think I've found Florence in Ambleside, a boarder - there are 2 other girls in the household, both boarders also born Liverpool. ADDED: Florence is a housemaid in 1901 in West Ham, born Westmorland, but on the original it states birth place n/k but brought up in Ambleside.

There is an Alfred Cross in Cottage Homes, Fazacklea - and 2 more Cross children, Henry Matthew (6) and William (8) all paupers, born Everton.

William Cross
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John Cross
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Cross
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool

Civil Parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration District: West Derby
Sub-registration District: Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 40
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 48
Piece: 2716
Folio: 94
Page Number: 8
Household Members: Name Age
John Cross 21 (Striker)
Elizabeth Cross 21
William Cross 2

William J Cross
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Cross
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration District: West Derby
Sub-registration District: Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Household Schedule Number: 145
Piece: 3812
Folio: 127
Page Number: 26
Household Members: Name Age
Elizabeth Cross 31
William J Cross 11
Mary E Cross 10
John W Cross 1
Frank Nixon 25

Father is not around in 1871, but is back with family 1881 and William J is no longer with them - interesting middle name shared by father & son,
John Wisdom Cross
Birth Date: 12 Jul 1869
Baptism Date: 19 Feb 1871
Parish: Liverpool, St Peter
Father's Name: John Cross (mariner)
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Cross
Reference Number: 283 PET/2/66

William James Cross
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 31 Jul 1859
Christening Place: Walton on the Hill, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: John Cross
Mother's Name: Elizabeth

I looked at that census as well, and think I found the same William with parents John & Elizabeth. Just in case it's relevant, I'll go back and find the earlier census again - think thie is the christening for the child on the 1881 census:

Alfred Edward Cross
Baptism Date: 1 Oct 1882
Parish: Wavertree, Holy Trinity
Father's Name: William Cross
Mother's Name: Eliza Cross
Reference Number: 283 HTW/2/2

Christened on the same day was Florence, but birth dates not given.

Oh thank you Dee you are a star. I will send you my two accounts one in office and one on ipad if you don't mind :-)

Thanks again

Annx

Hi Ann,

If you pm your email to me I'll send you a copy.

Dee

Hello Dee,

I am confusing myself now lol. Is it possible to email a copy of the pension records?

Not sure what to think about your find. 1881 census.....I have not searched further back yet from 1891. Am going to try and do an hour or two tonight. Thanks so much for your help.

Annx

Hi Ann,

The pension record was on ancestry.

If there is no marriage found for William snr, could it be that he was married prior and he just moved on from a failed marriage like so many did?


1881 England Census about Wm.James Cross
Name: Wm.James Cross
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Eliz.Ann Cross
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool
Civil Parish: Everton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 51 Poplar St
Marital Status: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Occupation: (Joiner) <<<<<<<!!!!!!
Registration District: West Derby
Sub-registration District: Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 59
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3665
Folio: 116
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
Wm.James Cross 21
Eliz.Ann Cross 19
Alfred Edward Cross 9 months


Now there is a baptism record for Ada with the correct parents and William is a joiner, the same for Catherine.


Name: Ada Cross
Birth Date: 16 Nov
Baptism Date: 26 Nov 1888
Parish: Liverpool, St Peter
Father's Name: William Cross
Mother's Name: Martha Cross
Reference Number: 283 PET/2/88



Name: Catherine Cross
Birth Date: 6 Nov 1897
Baptism Date: 23 Nov 1897
Parish: Liverpool, St Peter
Father's Name: William Cross
Mother's Name: Martha Cross
Reference Number: 283 PET/2/96


Where as this next record is confusing,


Name: Charlotte Anne Cross
Baptism Date: 1 Jan 1896
Parish: Edge Hill, St Nathaniel
Father's Name: William Cross
Mother's Name: Mattha Cross
Reference Number: 283 NAT/2/4

Firstly the name Stephen is crossed out and William added, then the surname Tiffin or Liffin in crossed out and Cross added..... Maybe just the wrong details, but it needs checking.

Have re-checked the record, he enlisted 11/11/1908 and was discharged 5/5/1919. On an earlier form nok was father William and brother William - no mention of mother/sisters, but the list referred to in my last post is right (image 22266, but I can't download it) - so not sure where sister Martha comes from, she wasn't on the earlier census with the family.

That is, unless she was May, but if she was I would have expected to find her with father & Lucy in 1911.

You're welcome Ann. You are right, the military record is on Ancestry - there are loads of pages, much of it duplication.

Other than the information given already, there is one page with next of kin listed - however it doesn't show the date the information was collated.

States: father and mother as William & Lucy, giving the address in Port Sunlight.
Brother, William; Sisters, Maud, Lottie, Kate, Martha & Ada.

Then states wife, as previously posted.

I'll go back & check, if I've made a mistake with the sisters names - not sure where Martha fits in.

Well done Flip.....that all looks possible. My eyes were sore searching both the Rice and Cross families last night.

Dd download a medal card for Arthur the son and the dam thing would not open....so it was the last straw late last night lol

Am waiting for BMD to come back on as she has spotted his pension records....must be on ancestry......will be out soon for the day....so will check back tonight for further developments!!!!

Thanks for your help Flip :-D

Reckon William/Lucy lied about being married 6 years in 1911 - this looks likely:

Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1912
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
CROSS William James MILLICAN Lucy Wirral, Civil Marriage Wirral WW/08/163

Having that middle name from the marriage cert helped!

The age for William was way out on the 1911 census, wonder if Lucy's was as well - this looks like her death:

Cheshire Death indexes for the years: 1917
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
CROSS Lucy 56 Bebington Wirral BEB/11/23

And a possible re-marriage for William:

Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1919
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
CROSS William MALLEY Elizabeth Ellen Wirral, Civil Marriage Wirral WW/12/200

Found this whilst looking for William's marriage(s):

Maud Cross
Gender: Female
Birth Date: abt 1890
Age: 21
Father's Name: William James Cross <<<
Spouse's Name: William Duffy
Spouse's Age: 21
Spouse's Father's Name: Patrick Duffy
Marriage Date: 29 Aug 1911
Marriage Place: New Ferry, Cheshire, England

Williams probate:

William James Cross
Probate Date: 7 Apr 1942
Death Date: 25 Feb 1942
Death Place: Cheshire, England
Registry: Liverpool, England

Of 19 Greendale Road, Port Sunlight, died at the hospital Port Sunlight. Admin to Elizabeth Ellen Cross, widow. £155 8s 9d

William J Cross
Birth Date: abt 1860
Date of Registration: Mar 1942
Age at Death: 82
Registration District: Wirral
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 869

Hopefully this will confirm the earlier census age.

Welcome to the club, we haven't found any marriage for him either. Think the only way you're going to get Martha's maiden name would be on of the children's birth certificates - this should be Arthur:

Births Jun 1891 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cross Arthur Birkenhead 8a 521

or Charlotte Ann (Lottie):

Births Dec 1895 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cross Charlotte Ann W. Derby 8b 573

Going bogeyed looking for the marriages :-0

This is the cert: 12.09.1918

Arthur Cross. 26 Bach / Driver Royal Field Artillery 53292.
19 Greendale Road Port Sunlight?
FATHER....William James Cross Boiler Fireman in Works.
/


Margaret Agnes Rice 25 / House Maid Domestic/ Needwood Cottage Bebington.

Michael Rice / FARMER

So looks like you lot Are on the right track....going for some food.....will be back!

Hello All,

So so sorry I did not get back to thread.....only home today.

The post has been and cert arrived.....was looking at the wrong Artur....which I thought I might be.

Just going to have a read of the thread and I will get back to you.

Annx

I can't actually find a marriage for William & Martha either! Don't work too hard!

Added, both their ages are all over the place which doesn't help - Martha b1862 on 1891 and b1869 in 1901, William b1859/1862/1868 on consecutive census.