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thanks Vera and i wont give up

Lynda

The grandfather angle is a good one.

It is a complicated one but don't give up. May be one of the more experienced members will have some different ideas on the way forward.

I'll have another look around for William Ewin see what might turn up..

Good luck

Vera

hi i know i need to find some more details before i buy any ceritficate but something interesting i saw on heir hunters the other morning..it said that a lot people in those days who were born out of wedlock, would use their grandfathers name on their marriage certificate as the father.so maybe ?
anyway i wont let it beat me im going to keep on trying.
have a good weekend
lynda

Hello Lynda

I picked that tip up from a Genes member always look around the original census because a lot of people met within their own area.

I have been looking for the marrige of Ewin/Short or even a Mary Ann/Thomas Short but no luck. Yes if you could find that it would hopefully reveal the birth name. Then she could be a Harris because we have never found that marriage either although there is one for Southwark in 1897 but thats a bit out of area.

Lots of possibiliies here Lynda. Need to find some link before the expense of purchasing marriage certs.

Regards

Vera

well i did know Thomas had been married before but not that they lived near each other.also that states that mary and Thomas were married and i have never been able to find a marriage certificate for them if i did they may show her maiden name. ?
you are really helpful thank you.

For info

1891 England Census
about Mary Short Name: Mary Short
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Thomas Short
Gender: Female
Where born: Bethnal Green, London, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthews
Town: Bethnal Green
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Bethnal Green South
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Short 50
Mary Short 36
Emma Short 18
Mary Short 9
Eliza Short 11

Vera

Lynda

Not sure you are aware but on the 1891 census Thomas Short and Mary Ann living two doors away from Thomas Talbot and Thomas Talbot's wife ?Elizabeth.

Regards

Hello Lynda

Unless I have missed some of the early posts i did not realise that yoiu had info on the Short family, I thought that came from one of Mike's findings.
I'll check out that link on 1890.

You are not causing bother asking for help. However, you probably need someone with more experience than me to unravel this for you as it is a complicated one but I will press on with the leads you have given me.

To get her birth cert you need to identify her maiden name and as yet that has not been possible.

Regards

Vera

hi Vera they were showing on the census for 1890 as the short family living in bethnal green.
Thomas short 1841
marry ann 1856
daughters mary ann (my grandmother)1883
Eliza
Emma

I know its the right family as i remember my aunts Eliza and Emma.
Thomas short was a lot older than her and a marriage certificate has never been found for them...maybe because she was married still to a mr harris.yes i suppose William Ewin could be her step father but will this make it more difficult to tey and obtain her birth certificate.sorry to cause bother with this and i do appreciate any help.
regrads lynda

Lynda

On Mary Ann's marriage cert to Thomas Talbot she was listed as a widow so therefore she must have been married before. Harris was probably her name from her first marriage.

Its intereting you say that she was linked by a census to the name of Short. This could be her maiden name but the marriage for Short and Harris does not fit in with Mary Ann's dob of 1856 and the area is wrong i.e. Marylebone.
but I would not write that one off yet.

Another possibilty is that she was a Short married to Harris then Talbot and that her father on cert, as has already been said, was William Ewin stepfather.

I have seen a Bethnal Green birth for 1850's, I will search again and put it up for information. Please give date of census when Mary Ann was living as a Short in Bethnal Green.

Regards

Vera

hi Vera i have a copy of the marriage certifcate (my sister has it now) and its definately the right Mary ann harris born 1856 and she married Thomas Talbot.it also is clearly her father William Ewin (deceased)but if it was her father why is she listed as harris as she was with a thomas short (my gt grandafather and their 3 children on an earlier census and living in bethnal green. maybe they didnt actually marry and she was using the name Harris from a marriage. but i cant find any trace of a mary ann EWIN being born in 1856.I know they are the right family as my mum often talked about Mary and thomas tallbot.thanks for looking
regards lynda

For info

William Ervin ? Ewin (looks more like Ewin to me) Shoemaker, Deceased.
EDIT Mary Ann widow, Thomas widower

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Mary Ann Harris Name: Mary Ann Harris
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Spouse Name: Thomas Talbot
Spouse Age: 43
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 27 Nov 1899
Parish: St Thomas, Stepney
County: London
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William Ervin
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Talbot

Regards

Vera

View original image

So Mary Ann Short's father was not William Ewis then ?
She was born c1860.

Mary Ann Harris who married Thomas Talbot was born c1856

2 different ladies ?????

? ?? for info

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Mary Ann Short Name: Mary Ann Short
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1860
Baptism Date: 21 Oct 1860
Father's Name: Matthew Short
Mother's Name: Mary Ann Short
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden


View original image

Vera

You took the words out of my head Vanessa. Have just re-checked original and if you put magnifyer on its a good posibility. Regards

Vera

Is it possible that bookmaker could be bootmaker - which is the pretty much the same as shoemaker??

??????? possible. Thomas' occupation does not match with 1880 marriage. I
i.e. bookmaker and shoemaker.

1881 England Census
about Thomas Harris Name: Thomas Harris
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary A. Harris
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Pancras
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 208 Arlington Rd
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Shoemaker

Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Regents Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Harris 20
Mary A. Harris 20


View
Original
Record

View original image View blank form

Vera

Lynda

Further to Mike's findings


Original record has them both minors (under 21). Thomas is a bookmaker. Mary Ann's father is recorded as deceased

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Mary Ann Short Name: Mary Ann Short
Spouse Name: Thomas Harris
Spouse Age: Minor
Record Type: Marriage

Marriage Date: 26 Jan 1880
Parish: St Pancras Old Church
County: Middlesex
Borough: Camden
Spouse Father Name: John Harris


View original image

regards Vera

thank you very much Mike for all your help tonight i,ll get on with it now

Find William on the census and then you'll know how old he was and can therefore determine which death would be his.