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Reviewing your last part about Frances, I would have thought she would use the name Chamley. Especially as 1901 certainly looks like her.

Ozi

Ditto from me,Samantha!

Maureen

Sorry, Samantha, I meant to say get well soon, but got caught up in your family.

Ozi

Sorry, have been out - I agree it said deceased, deceased, for father's name and for father's occupation, hadn't noticed the transcription 'Leonard'.

Name: Ernest A Tagg
Death Registration Month/Year: 1943
Age at death (estimated): 68
Registration district: Edmonton
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 988

Not finding a likely death yet for Frances Tagg.

Although the age is slightly out - could this be Frances in 1901?

KENDAL, James F Head Married M 53 1848 Watchmaker & Jeweller
City
London
KENDAL, Florence E Wife Married F 23 1878
Islington
London
KENDAL, James T Son Single M 3 1898
Richmond
Surrey
>>>>CHAMLEY, Fanny Servant Single F 19 1882 Housemaid Domestic
City
London
NEAL, Annie Servant Single F 21 1880 Cook Domestic
Leytonstone
Essex
HOPKINS, Eliza Servant Single F 16 1885 Nurse Domestic
Kew
Middlesex

RG number:
RG13 Piece:
171 Folio:
65 Page:
32

Registration District:
Islington Sub District:
Lower Holloway Enumeration District:
3 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Luke

Civil Parish:
Islington Municipal Borough:
Address:
440, Camden Road, Islington County:
London

Leonard?? I think it says "deceased" on the image.

Maureen

Marriage (for info) Note it's transcribed Tagg not Jagg - tbh original could be either:

Name: Frances Vicary
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1880
Spouse Name: Ernest Alfred Tagg
Spouse Age: 28
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 11 Jul 1903
Parish: St Andrew, Barnsbury
County: London
Borough: Islington
Father Name: Leonard Vicary
Spouse Father Name: William Tagg

Witnesses Alice Amelia Long and Ernest Marsland

It's really difficult to tell if that's the same Frances (although I don't see another likely one :

1911 census transcription details for: 42 Grafton Road Holloway N
RG14PN819 RG78PN28 RD10 SD2 ED20 SN278


Reg. District: Islington Sub District: Upper Holloway
Parish: Islington Enum. District: 20
Address: 42 Grafton Road Holloway N
County: London
TAGG, Ernest Alfred Head Married M 36 1875 Coachman Royal Mail London Islington
TAGG, Fanny Francis Wife Married
8 years F 29 1882 London Westminster
TAGG, Ernest Francis Son M 7 1904 London Islington
TAGG, Leonard Alfred Son M 1 1910 London Islington


I looked up the address given on the marriage cert (!3 Storey Street,Islington) in 1901,but didn't see anyone promising. Well,there was a Fanny Searle of the right age,but she's really a Searle.

Maureen

Morning Ozi how are you

Ive been having a look through some paper work that i have here and dont know if its a match or helps but have found a marriage cert for Frances Vicary aged 23 yrs marrying an Ernest Alfred Jagg on the 11 Juky 1903 BUT for her fathers name and rank of profession she she put deceased, although her father Thomas John Vicary did not die until 1908 or was she referring to George Chamley as he died 1900 which would seem weird as the two of them have not been mention or really connected together.

Samantha

Samantha, I don't think you ever will prove an adoption. As for FrancEs, are we sure she survived to 1891?

Ozi

Hi Everyone

I cant believe how much work you have all done im so sorry i havent been i touch i was rushed to the doctors and have been refined to bed, this is the first time i have felt like sitting up and doing something but still can not move as yet, so looks like i have lots to be going with (think my head is about to explode lol)

I to still do not know where the Bryant name has come from.

Also if George Chamley did adpot Frank why not also Frances aswell and how would i prove that there ever was an adpotion that took place as did it noe become legal until 1927???

Samantha

You are so right Katie. I missed that info completely! Thanks.

The only problem is Ellen/Ann's birthplace. It looks like she's trying to cover her tracks.

So 1881 should now read ...

By 1881 it is possible that the couple had already split up and Ellen (Ann?) was working as a milliner in Newington with the 6 month old twins. Thomas was also recorded as married, and back living with Mum, Elizabeth.

Ozi

I agree Oz, well done.
The only thing I would query is that I think the twins Francis and Frances are the ones living with Ann Vicary in 1881. There are no other twins with those names born at that time and place. Whether Ellen is Ann or Jane I don't know, but before her marriage Ellen was a dressmaker as she was again later. "Ann" was a milliner, fairly similar to dressmaker, whereas "Jane" was a nursemaid - a bit of a change of career.

Not found the Bryant link yet!
Katie

That looks like an excellent summation to me,Ozi!! Well done!

Maureen

Just seeing if I can find a Bryant connection ( I have Bryant ancestors from Shaftesbury/Stalbridge )

1841 census Shaftesbury
Parsons Pool; 1; William TAYLOR; m; 35; tailor; y

Parsons Pool; ; Ann TAYLOR; f; 30; ; y

Parsons Pool; ; Edwin TAYLOR; m; 15; Apprentice; y

Parsons Pool; ; Thomas TAYLOR; m; 13; ; y

Parsons Pool; ; William TAYLOR; m; 12; ; y

Parsons Pool; ; Albert TAYLOR; m; 4; ; y

Parsons Pool; ; George TAYLOR; m; 2; ; y

Parsons Pool; ; Louisa TAYLOR; f; 10; ; y

Parsons Pool; ; Jane TAYLOR; f; 8; ; y

Parsons Pool; ; Helen TAYLOR; f; 6; ; y

Possible marriage for his parents in Shaftesbury
1823 William Taylor widower of St. Peter & Ann Blandford were married Oct-09

Looks like Ellen's baptism at Shaftesbury Holy Trinity

1855; 29-May; Ellen Jane; daughter of Edwin & Charlotte; Taylor; Bleke St; cabinetmaker;

Lots of siblings also in the records. See http://www.opcdorset.org/ShaftesburyFiles/HolyTrinity/ShaftHTBaps1838-1863.htm

So this is my interpretation of your story.

Ellen Jane Taylor, born Shaftesbury c1855, married Thomas John Vicary in c Jun 1878. They had 3 children.

Births Dec 1878
Vicary Noble Ernest St. Saviour 1d 187 - died cJun 1879

Births Sep 1880
VICARY Frances Edwina W Lambeth 1d 353 - unknown fate
VICARY Francis Bryant W Lambeth 1d 353 - married Charlotte Collins 1907, and had Muriel (1908) and Francis B (1911).

By 1881 it is possible that the couple had already split up and Ellen (Jane) was working as a married, domestic Nurse in Lambeth. Thomas was also recorded as married, and back living with Mum, Elizabeth, and no sign of the twins.

1891 finds them still apart. Their son, Frances (Frank) was recorded as the adopted son of George Chamley c1835 Poona, India. George was formerly a Staff Clerk in the Royal Engineers and married a Charlotte Bussell in Weymouth, Dorset. Charlotte was still living, but apart from George, in 1891. There is no sign of Ellen or her daughter. It seems that Thomas is living with a cousin, Elizabeth Darrell and her son.

1900 George Chamley dies at Pancras and Ellen is recorded as his widow on the death cert.
Deaths Dec 1900
Chamley George 65 Pancras 1b 47

1901 finds Ellen Charmley as a widow living in St Pancras on her own. First wife of George, Charlotte, is living in Woolwich. Thomas Vicary is living in Lambeth with his wife Elizabeth & son. (It looks like the ones he was with in 1891.)

At this stage Ellen's death cannot be found. Thomas looks as if he died in 1908.
Deaths Jun 1908
Vicary Thomas John 50 St.Albans 3a 357

Therefore, it looks like your great-grandfather, Francis (Frank) Bryant Warren Vicary AKA Chamley was the legitimate son of Thomas John Allan Vicary and Ellen Jane Taylor. He was also the adopted son of George Chamley. Remember that adoption was a personal arrangement at that time. However Frank considers himself a Chamley at his marriage.
Marriages Jun 1907
CHAMLEY Frank Kensington 1a 288
COLLINS Charlotte Kensington 1a 288

It also seems that neither Ellen or Thomas were bigamists. No second marriage has been found as yet for either of them. Divorce was rare for ordinary people at that time. Most people split up and lived in a de facto relationship after that.

Ozi

Have you been in touch with Barry who also seems to have the twins on his tree?

Ozi

This is a possibility for Thomas and Elizabeth's son.

1911: MILITARY VICARY ERNEST 1886 25 Colchester Essex - born Hammersmith