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Ah -- by "the library" she probably means free access to Ancestry via the library's computers. Libraries all over England offer that.

I don't know that it would be the actual birth certificate; more likely just the record from the same indexes I've been searching. Let us know, though!

Lesley - don't you love it when they tell us what they know *after* we've spent months finding it? ;)

I did some more searching for info on Syndey Nicholls and son John Barry. I then asked my mother did she have any other uncles she recalled...No, I have no other Uncles..
Do you remember your Uncle Jack? (John Barry)
'Of course I do, he was my uncle after all!'
She of course cant recall anything else, there might be lots more information hiding away somewhere.

As for the Library, yes I think youre correct, she said it was Ancestry or something (quote)

Oh Janey, my grandfather played rugby for Wales schoolboys my mother tells me, he got a scholarship for it.
I wondered if I might get a photo for her for his success in that... do you have any bright ideas or places I might look.
I looked on GENUKI but couldnt find anything.

Oh Oh Oh...Janey and Lesley look at this link if you will...this might just be him!!
http://www.rugbyrelics.com/Museum/partners/Partners.htm#COLLECTIONS

Im sooo excited....

Well there's a whole load there about Gwyn (brother of Thomas Henry 1870) - but I only see this possibly about Tom:

Item 23 - Reproduction of the pirate programme on sale at the match, it is believed these were printed and sold at the 1935 or 1953 match, this particular copy belonged to Norman Fox of Cardiff who's best friend was Tom Nicholls, believed to be a relation of Gwyn (pictured on the front cover). Reproduced by S Glossop & Sons Ltd, Cardiff. (WRM-0120)

Is that the one you mean? But the picture seems to be of Gwyn ...

You need to specify *what* we're looking at. ;)

But it certainly could be worthwhile to contact the people at the website and ask what they might have.


The only Norman Fox born in Cardiff was born in 1924, so that may be a later Tom Nicholls it's talking about -- possibly your mum's brother?

Now actually, John Barry Nicholls, son of Sydney, was Tom Nicholls 1901's first cousin -- so he wasn't quite your mum's uncle. ;) He was the son of her dad's uncle. Aha, he and Tom were the same age, if this was him.

Name: John Barry L Nicholls
Birth Date: 14 Dec 1898
Death Registration Month/Year: 1970
Registration district: Cardiff
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 8b
Page: 1271

Name: John B L Nicholls + Nancy G Rees
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1925
Registration district: Cardiff
Registration county (inferred): Glamorgan
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 1072

Births Jun 1906 ?
Rees Nancy Gertrude Llanelly 11a 1167

No children born in Cardiff, although there are Nicholls-Rees births elsewhere in Wales 1922-1946 -- but marriages to likely account for them.

Does your mum know whether uncle Jack had kids?


1901 in Cardiff

Sidney H Nicholls 32
Sarah Nicholls 33
Gladys C Nicholls 10
Gwyn H Nicholls 8
Sidney E Nicholls 6
John B Nicholls 2
Edward G Nicholls under 1 month


1911 in Cardiff

NICHOLLS JOHN BARRY LEWIS 1899 12 Cardiff Glamorganshire
NICHOLLS SARAH 1868 43
NICHOLLS SIDNEY HERBERT 1869 42
NICHOLLS GWLADYS CLARA 1891 20
NICHOLLS HARTLEY GWYN 1893 18
NICHOLLS SIDNEY EVAN 1895 16
NICHOLLS GLYNDWE EDWARD 1901 10
NICHOLLS HERBERT LLEWELLYN 1903 8

Thanks Janey...Im always amazed how you get so much information so fast (I feel inadequate)
I have written to the museum, that is the Tom I was referring to, probably not him though sadly as you say ((shattered))
I have quzzed my mother again, she is insistant that Jack was her uncle but then its more than possible she did call him uncle.
As for my mother knowing more about her 'uncle' she says no, she knows nothing!
I might see if I can get hold of my aunt Patricia who is a little younger than my mother and see if her memory is any better.

I beleive that my own uncle 'Tom' did not play rugby..a mystery. I got so excited, then dashed.. I suppose this is all part and parcel of it.

Yes -- I quickly found out that the Frances who lived for decades, and died, in a lunatic asylum wasn't my grx3 grandmother after all (I found her birth record, and she was unmarried). It had been a good theory to explain a few things, briefly, but was relief, of course -- how horrible a life that would have been (although it was still someone's) -- but I still don't know anything about my grx3 grandmother!

I don't suppose it's Tom 1901's brother John William 1898 who was Uncle Jack?

It wouldn't be surprising if your mother considered Tom's cousin John Barry to be an uncle, though, especially if other family did rally round when Tom died leaving young children.

Hi Janey, I have absolutely no idea who the real Uncle Jack was, when I mentioned football..oh no, he was a rugby player.
That must have been a real smack finding out that the person you were looking at wasn't your relative.

As for me, its so frustrating that my mother must have locked such a lot away...maybe a visit to a Hypnotherapist might be in order ; )

The problem with being Welsh is
All my Dads friends were called Uncle, so I had Uncle Jack ,uncle john etc, etc. So maybe not a real uncle?
Or
Jack is a nickname for John and was used a lot in Wales, So possible for Jack read John??
Worth a try?
lesley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpftcY-7OwU&NR=1
Syd Nicholls can be seen here introducing King Edward v to the players at the FA cup final Cardiff v Arsenal in 1927
My dad was too a keen footballer in his youth and always a supporter of Cardiff City. this was a little strange in the Welsh valleys where we are brought up on a diet of rugby. So maybe he was taken as a boy to see Jack play ??

A few of years before we started researching the family we bought a small house in Splott in Cardiff. We stay here when we go back to Wales. It turned out to be just around the corner from Constellation str where Hartley and family lived circa 1911.

I keep forgetting that when you folks say "football" in a conversation about rugby, you mean soccer. Rugby is just a sort of old name for football (North American football), here, although English/international "rugby" is also played here at the amateur level. ;)

My Auntie Mae was not my aunt, she was my mum's best friend -- but I did know that!

Bob is my uncle, however. ;)

Anyhow, I'd guess that "Uncle Jack" was either Tom 1901's brother John William or Tom 1901's first cousin John Barry who was close to the same age as Tom 1901.

But question is: did Uncle Jack have any kids that your mum remembers?

And, I think, here we are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Nicholls_(footballer)

John Barry L. "Jack" Nicholls (14 February 1898 – 1970) was a Welsh former professional footballer and Wales international. His father Sydney Nicholls and uncle Gwyn Nicholls were both Wales rugby union internationals.


I'd seen his name on Sydney's wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Nicholls

in the list of famous relatives, but the link there is incorrect and goes to a page that doesn't exist (I could tell because it's red rather than blue) so I didn't even bother looking for a page on him at the time. I just now googled

"Jack Nicholls" football

and found the wiki page.

So Tom 1901's first cousin John Barry "Jack" Nicholls was undoubtedly your mum's Uncle Jack.

... Except that she insists that Uncle Jack played rugby and not football, aargh ... I do think maybe she's just a bit muddled with the rest of the men in the family who all played rugby - ?

Yes...I have asked at an inopportune moment as I always do..
'Well rugby ,football theyre almost the same, he played for Wales you know!'

I learned just now that one of them owned a sweet factory today also! I havent managed to eek out much more of that one but might wait til she is dropping off to sleep (when she finally sits down) and maybe she will be in a relaxed state to recall a bit...

The Welsh Rugby Museum is going to try to find a photo for me tomorrow...my grandfather played for Wales schoolboys.

It is strange that syd nicholls started off playing rugby and ended up president of the Welsh FA. A bit of a turn around.
Expect to be run out of the welsh valleys if you think rugby and football are similar. I think boys here a born with egg shaped balls in their hands.
There was also the Nicholls Winfield laundry in Cardiff, which I believe still exists today as Winfield. They do hotel laundry etc. Heather your Mum may recall this.
My Unlce Garnet ie. Vivian Evan's brother worked there until he retired after the takeover from Wingfield. I believe a Wingfield was part of the family.
My Grandfather Douglas Hartley was a teacher but the family also had a laundry premises in Caerphilly circa 1912
Im going to grill my 92 year old and see if she can remember my dad having any cousins in Cardiff. Dad was born in 1912 so he may have had contact with older cousins.

I did some grilling this morning!
Cant say I got too far other than a very complicated explanation of where in Cardiff her Grandparents used to live ( I used to live in Cardiff and think I know it quite well...still had no idea where she means : ) Never mind)
My mother said that her father and grandfather had attended Rugby school (The Rugby school I
wonder?) Strangely in my searching I found a pic of a Hartley at Rugby school but dont know whether it was our Hartley.

To complicate things just a little further, it appears that my Uncle Thomas Nicholls also played a lot of rugby for Cardiff and was extremely good at it.
Why does our family seem to have an obsession with the name Thomas??

Hello - I guess I am late to the party but was hoping someone still checks/uses this site. I am Laura Gwynne Williams, daughter of Erith Gwyn Williams, grandson of Erith Gwyn Nicholls - ta da!! I would love to be added to the family tree and can add a few more branches. I am also interested in finding out, connecting, with people who might know more about my dad's paternal family. His dad was Franklyn Lewis Williams (yes, another one of the rugby club) and he and Erith divorced when my dad was about 10, Erith then remarried and moved to Canada. Naturally, due to the time, he lost contact with his father. I do know that Franklyn Lewis Williams went on to marry another woman by the name of Constance who already had two children (boy and girl) - he became a teacher and taught until his death in 1959. I am looking for connects to that branch of the family (but know that all these Welsh rugby players all overlapped). My dad was also present for Ivor Nicholls funeral (1982? I think) and still has contact with Carol Cathcart (who comes from the Winfield family - part of the Nicholls Winfield laundry). Dad also has collected some family things (rugby memoriabilia) so I have sent off an inquiry to the Welsh Rugby Museum. I have a copy of David Parry-Jones' book - he was in contact with my Dad during the writing of the book. Please can anyone help??

Hi Laura welcome to the boards

After 4 years Heather may not be checking for more replies, click on her name and send a private message, if her email address is still the same she will be notified