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Thanks

I will take a look at this.

From http://www.progenealogists.com/germansengland.htm
"Beyond London, small German communities developed in a few northern cities. With 1,300 Germans in 1911, Manchester was the second largest German community in 1911. Bradford had a smaller community. The Germans in Hull (855 in 1911) apparently settled there as it was on the transportation route to America, and was visited by German sailors."


It also gives you tips on resources for tracing Germans in England.

Ozi

HI JC

Thanks for the information
There is no fathers name on the marriage cert.
I guess JW Sass did not know his father or family and that is the real mystery.

I think I have to believe Fred and Louisa were his parents.

There were at least two Fred Sass's and the one who married Jane Smith is probably nothing to do with my family.

I found the marriage you posted above on IGI it gives the full names and the couples fathers names.

Quoy

Thanks for looking
I have JW Sass's death in 1923, 2 years before his first Grand-daughter was born. She is still alive.

I have no idea who Roy Sass was even though he was buried in Manchester.

I am also unsure if the Fred Sass who died in London was anything to do with Fred and Louisa Sass.
I believe Fred Sass who was on the 1881 Census in Sunderland died in 1885 in Sunderland

We know a Fred Sass landed in Dover in 1850

This Fred Sass is Fred A Sass and I believe JW Sass's father to be Johann Christian Friedrich Sasse so no A.

The Fred Sass who landed in Dover in 1850 could be the Fred A Sass who died in London.

I have looked again and still can't find Johann Christian Friedrich Sasse or Johanna Maria Louise Koeppen on the 1851 Census.

Therefore did they enter the country between 1851 census and their marriage in 1858.
Did they run away from Germany to marry in Hull?
Of all places why Hull?
Was Hull the first place with a Church they landed in England?

21/12/1923 John W Sass Philips Park Cemetery CNon Conformist 844 View details
30/01/1961 Roy Stephen Sass Southern Cemetery NNon Conformist 820
http://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/GenSearch.aspx



and this death
The Pall Mall Gazette (London, England), Tuesday, February 25, 1879
Sass Mr Frederick A Sass at Gloucester Place ,Portman Square Feb 19th

1861 -- possibly related to Louisa?

Name: Anna Elizth Koeppen
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relation: Visitor
Where born: Schlesien, Newmarks
Civil parish: Brighton

Found the blamed marriage in the GRO index, anyhow -- unles this had been found before and I'm forgetting:

Marriages Dec 1858
Koeppen Johanna Maria Louise Hull 9d 384
Sassel Johann Christian Frederick Hull 9d 384
Sasser Johann Christian Freidrich Hull 9d 384

In point of fact, the image says SASSE.



Simon. About John William Sass's marriage certificate, your answer was:

it states name John Willam Sass
Occupation Blacksmith
Father deceased Occupation Not Known

but I'd asked for confirmation of the father's *name* on the marriage certificate -- it says deceased, and doesn't say his name?

I can't find any Fred Sass in the 1851 Census.

If there was two and we know one landed in 1850 where were they in 1851?

Regarding newspapers with a little help from my friends, we did find something.

No news on why John Sass would be in the workhouse but news stating John Sass won a prize in the workhouse!


HULL WORKHOUSE .
The Hull Packet and East Riding Times (Hull, England), Friday, January 10, 1879
HULL WORKHOUSE ANNUAL DISTRIBUTION OF PRIZES
The annual distribution of prizes at the Hull Workhouse took place on Monday evening, in the dining hall of the institution. As usual there was a very large attendance of visitors. The hall was decorated with evergreens, a number of suitable mottoes & c. The chair was occupied by Mr E Balchin and upon the platford were the Mayor (Alderman R Waller) the Sheriff (MR CRAVEN MRCS) the Rev Robinson (chaplain to the institution) Mr W J Reed (Law Clerk) Councillor Coben (Governer Elect) Mr Councillor Wilkinson and other guardians.
The Chairman briefly opened the proceedings by expressing the pleasure of the guardians at seeing so many visitors present. He remarked that the guardians fully felt that it was their duty to train up these young children around them in the way they should go and be trusted that the proceedings of that evening would convince those presentthat this was being done. The idea of the guardians was to give the children a good education and to make them not receivers of rates but rate payers (Hear Hear). By so doing the guardians believed they were doing their duty not only to ratepayers but to the children (Applause).
The following programme was then gone through by the children of the institution, Mr T Oates presiding at the harmonium.
Follows ......recitals & songs then prizes giving.
JOHN SASS received a prize.....

I forgot to say
If the Dover record is correct then a Frederick Sass born in Germany should be on the 1851 census.

Ok LadyK

Ozi

I missed your post regarding newspapers.
I haven't looked at that no, I have no idea how I would look at Victorian Hull newspapers other than going to Hull library.

I just found the earlier posting and was comiung back to edit

Hi Everyone

Many thanks for your input

I only logged off for a few hours.

I agree that John William and William John are in all probability are the same boy and man who lived in a workhouse in Hull and then lived and married in Manchester.

Who was his mother

He was born in 1867

By then a Frederick Sass was married to Jane Smith in Sunderland
room's name: Frederick Lass
groom's birth date: 1832
groom's birthplace:
groom's age: 32
bride's name: Jane Smith
bride's birth date: 1838
bride's birthplace:
bride's age: 26
marriage date: 06 Sep 1864
marriage place: Monk-Wearmouth, Durham, England
groom's father's name: John Lass
groom's mother's name:
bride's father's name: Cavendish Smith
bride's mother's name:
groom's race:
groom's marital status: Single
groom's previous wife's name:
bride's race:
bride's marital status: Single
bride's previous husband's name:
indexing project (batch) number: M00769-3
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1514569
reference number: 17

Is this Marriage anything to do with John William Sass

Was Jane Johns Mother?

If so why was he in a Workhouse in Hull if his mum and dad were in Sunderland.

As Janey stated earlier in the thread was there two Fred Sass's

I think there must have been.

Fred and Lousia Sass
Their marriage in Hull.
Is it not odd that they married in England and not Germany.
I assume they knew each other before they came to England.

room's name: Johann Christian Friedrich Sasse
groom's birth date: 1829
groom's birthplace:
groom's age: 29
bride's name: Johanna Maria Louise Koeppen
bride's birth date: 1836
bride's birthplace:
bride's age: 22
marriage date: 09 Dec 1858
marriage place: Holy Trinity, Hull, York, England
groom's father's name: Johann Christian Friedrick Sasse
groom's mother's name:
bride's father's name: Heinrich Viezert Koeppen
bride's mother's name:
groom's race:
groom's marital status: Single
groom's previous wife's name:
bride's race:
bride's marital status: Single
bride's previous husband's name:
indexing project (batch) number: M01519-7
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1702266
reference number: Item 5 page 238

1861 Census
Name: Frederick Sass
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa
Gender: Male
Where born: Germany

Civil Parish: Hull Holy Trinity
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Registration district: Hull
Sub registration district: Humber
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 1a

Frederick Sass 32
Jane Sass 2
Julius Sass 2 Mo
Louisa Sass 24


By 1871 a William John Sass was in Hull Workhouse.

Was Louisa Sass his mother?

What happened to the family?
Surely they didn't just return leaving a baby in the workhouse.

The Births records of Jane and Julius have been found.
But no death records for any of them other for a Frederick Sass in Sunderland.

LadyKira

I have seen the Arrival record before, it's actually in this thread.
I have a copy of the document with Frederick Sass signature.
I was a little skeptical that it was John Williams father because why would he land in Dover and work in Hull.
Why not sail from London to Hull?
It may be him or another Frederick Sass.

Still lots of questions.

I do actually agrre Ozibird. I posted it very late last night and I was not able to follow ithrough.


Simon please send me your email

just came across this but nothing to confirm it is definitely our man


England, Alien Arrivals, 1810-1811, 1826-1869

Name: Frederic Sass
Port of Arrival: Dover, England
Arrival Date: 21 Feb 1850
Country of Origin/Native of:Germany

I believe that William J/John W is Frederick & Louisa's son. Everything points in that direction. Obviously something catastrophic happened to this family while William was too young to remember. He may have been born elsewhere although the family lived in Hull, therefore his reg'n is not in Hull. Or in the aftermath of family chaos he was never registered.

The other great mystery is what happened to Frederick, Louisa, Jane and Julius? By the looks of his marriage cert he may never have known his parents.

Have you tried old newspapers of the area to see if there are any accidents, etc at the time.?

Ozi

I'm not convinced of the Such theory.

Marriages Jun 1887
HALL Elizabeth Glanford B. 7a 1389
Hebblwhite Joel Glanford B. 7a 1389
OSGERBY Mary Ann S Glanford B 7a 1389
Such John William G Glanford B. 7a 1389



1891 England Census
Name: John Such
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Such
Gender: Male
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: South Ferriby
Ecclesiastical parish: St Lawrence
Town: South Ferriby
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation: Brick Maker

Registration district: Glanford Brigg <<<< same district as he married.
Sub-registration district: Barton
Piece: 2629
Folio: 66
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
John Such 26
Mary Ann Such 25

These people, attributed to the Such household are on the next page and their surname is Frith. They have nothing to do with John Such.
Charlotte Ann Such 37
Florence Such 12
George William Such 10
Maude L W Such 8



1901 England Census
Name: John Suck [Such on image]
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Suck
Gender: Male
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: South Ferriby
Ecclesiastical parish: South Ferriby St Nicholas
Town: South Ferriby
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation: Brick Maker

Registration district: Glanford Brigg
Sub-registration district: Barton
Piece: 3107
Folio: 78
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
John Suck 36
Mary Suck 35

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations),1861-1941
Name: John William Sass
Probate Date: 10 Jan 1924
Death Date: 17 Dec 1923
Death Place: Manchester, England
Registry: Manchester





Sass John William of 9 Crystal Street Queen's Road Harpurhey Manchester died 17th December 1923. Administration Manchester 10 january to Beatrice Sass widow Effects £250.00

But it does show that there is often more than one possibility and we should not jump to a conclusion without collaberating evidence or we would all end up with fantasy trees.

JC

I have just spoken to my Mother in Law who has the marriage cert.

She says it states name John Willam Sass
Occupation Blacksmith
Father deceased Occupation Not Known

No mention of initial G

On the 1891 census it gives JW Sass Occupation as Blacksmith.

Simon -- you do have the marriage certificate? --

Marriages Sep 1896
Hamer Beatrice Caroline Chorlton 8c 1480
SASS John William Chorlton 8c 1480


And it says father Frederick Sass, tailor? and the age and occupation it gives for JW are ... ?

I'm not convinced by the Such-s either. But the initial "G" in 1911 (assuming that's a correct transcription) is itself interesting. It isn't there on the marriage record.

I agree it is a possibility.

Could you send me the original 1911 image please so I can see it for myself.
If so I will PM you my email addy.

It is also a big coincidence that there is a Sass of the right age born in Hull
and on 3 census it states where born Hull all with the name Sass.

Where was JWG Such in 1891?

It is so frustrating.

Many thanks for your help.

It is a possibility though. Note the name in 1911

John William G

And believe me I have seen greater variations in one persons name on one document but definitely talking about the person.

They spelt how they said it or heard it said.