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Some parish poor relief records can hold a lot of info.Regarding parentage ,children,who the children married ,where they are ,and how many children they had.

Allan

Poor relief before 1845
The first acts of parliament to deal with the relief of the poor were passed in 1424. Most of these and subsequent acts in the 15th and 16th centuries were aimed at dealing with the problem of 'sturdy beggars'. Few records detailing individuals survive from this period. After the Reformation the responsibility for the poor fell on the parish, jointly through the heritors (local landowners) (NAS ref. HR) and the kirk sessions (NAS ref. CH2). The heritors often made voluntary contributions to the poor fund in preference to being assessed (a tax on the owners of land or property). The kirk sessions raised income for the poor from fines, payments for carrying out marriages, baptisms and funerals and church collections.
Lists of distributions to the poor in cash and in kind will appear in records of the heritors and kirk sessions. Sometimes poor relief records were kept in a separate volume for that particular parish. In the majority of cases, however, you should look for minutes or accounts and then simply trawl through the entries to see if there are any relating to poor relief. Unfortunately there is usually no quick way of searching through these records since poor relief was almost always recorded in amongst all the other financial business of the parish.


Poor relief after 1845
Following the Poor Law Amendment (Scotland) Act of 1845 parochial boards were set up in each parish to administer poor relief. The type of record you should look for changes gradually from those of the heritors and kirk session to those of the parochial board and, after 1894, the parish council. It can still be worth checking the heritors' and kirk session records for mentions of payments to paupers for up to 40 years after the establishment of parochial boards.
The records of the parochial boards can sometimes be found in the heritors' records, but more frequently they are found in the county, district and burgh records. Each parochial board had to keep a roll of the poor to whom it gave relief and these can contain a considerable amount of detail about each pauper - name, age, country and place of birth, marital status and details of spouse and children. The records may also include applications for those who were not successful in receiving relief. The NAS holds parochial board records for some parishes in East Lothian (NAS ref. CO7/7, DC5/4-5 and DC7/4),
Midlothian (NAS ref. CO2/77-91) and Wigtownshire (NAS ref. CO4/30-47). For information on records for all other areas of Scotland you should contact the relevant local archive. A list of Scottish archives is available on the Scottish Archive Network (SCAN) website. The SCAN website Knowledge Base also contains information on poor relief registers.

I think what Ellen is trying to tell you that back then they would more than likely have had to apply for help with burial or day to day living when their spouses passed away especially if they had young children and could not work. So Charlotte may have claimed at some point and if she did there will be info about her on the claim

Ellen,

Sorry I don't understand the Poor Relief conclusion, how do you arrive at that?

Allan

It's not the first time the parents on a death certificate is empty.She must have claimed poor relief to bury at least 1 of her husbands ,or between marriages.

Hello Folks,

I've been through all your posts and am astonished how much work you have all put in, so once again my sincere thanks.

One thing is clear, which is the confusion! I've been through most of it before, but I think the crux is the marriage certificate of Robert Ramsay and Ann Paterson (my great grandparents), which shows Ann's mother as Charlotte Fife formerly Paterson previously Blair M/S Scotland. Charlotte had 4 Paterson children and one Blair child, hence I can discount the Jess possibility. On her death certificate, it is quite possible that her son-in-law, when registering her death, did not know either her father's Christian name, her mother's name, or her previous )Paterson) married name.

It looks like we are no nearer finding who her parents were, but I'll keep trying!

Regards
Allan

Given that the family did not seem to move very far this may be of interest

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1189550
Clackmannan Parish Burials pre-1855, A4
Price: £3.00

With Ellens post in mind

3 15/07/1775 HIGGINS JOHN JEAN SCOTLAND/ M CLACKMANNAN /CLACKMANNAN 466/ 0040 0432 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

2 07/06/1778 HIGGINS ISOBEL JOHN HIGGINS/JEAN SCOTLAND F CLACKMANNAN /CLACKMANNAN 466/ 0040 0100 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

unfortunately parish records are very basic so there is no way of proving any connection

Jackie

Ann Paterson's middle name of Higgins has come from a Grandmother either on the Paterson side or the Scotland Side.

My sincere apologies to everyone for not returning to the thread - I wrongly assumed I would get alerts if anyone reponded!

Thank you all for all your efforts which I will now investigate.

My only source for Charlotte Scotland is the marriage certificate of my great grandparents Robert Ramsay and Ann Higgins Paterson where Charlotte is recorded as Ann's mother.

Regards
Allan

Poor Relief Records

The NAS holds parochial board records for some parishes in East Lothian (NAS ref. CO7/7, DC5/4-5 and DC7/4),
Midlothian (NAS ref. CO2/77-91) and Wigtownshire (NAS ref. CO4/30-47). For information on records for all other areas of Scotland you should contact the relevant local archive. A list of Scottish archives is available on the Scottish Archive Network (SCAN) website. The SCAN website Knowledge Base also contains information on poor relief registers.

As the question asked was for the parents of Charlotte Scotland ,and her death certificate is missing that info,then the only hope is poor relief as all her marriages are before 1855.poor relief records are either at Scotland Archives or New Register House,both Edinburgh.

If you look at the 1841 Census, Charlotte had her son James Blair (13) living with her & Andrew Paterson who I originally thought was
charlotte's husband but looks to me like either her husband's father or she married an old man.


Kath

Ok Anne's marraiage cert shows Charlotte was a serial bride
here the details from Scotlands People

marriage took place on 17 NOv 1865

Robert Ramsay Train Driver on Railway
married
Ann Higgins Paterson
he was from Stirling she was from Clackmanan
his parents are Robert and Robina Ramsay m/s Cuthbertons

Ann's are as it appears on the cert

Andrew Paterson Cartor Dec?
Charlotte Fife formerly Paterson formerly Blair m/s Scotland

Jackie

What do you think the P stands for people
Name: Ann H P Ramsay
Age: 58
Estimated birth year: abt 1843
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : Robt
Gender: Female
Where born: Clackmannan
Registration Number: 644/6
Registration district: St Rollox
Civil parish: Glasgow Springburn
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 10 Colgrain Tr
ED: 78
Household schedule number: 111
Line: 5
Roll: CSSCT1901_290
Household Members: Name Age
Robt Ramsay 53
Ann H P Ramsay 58
Robina Ramsay 22
Ann H P Ramsay 19
Mary Ramsay 15
Jno Fraser Ramsay 12


Unfortunately, we are unable to display the accompanying images of this census at present, despite extensive negotiation with the General Register Office for Scotland. Permission from them has not, as yet, been forthcoming. For this reason, and to enable you to continue with your family history research, Ancestry has heavily transcribed the Scottish Census records to ensure you have access to all key areas of information contained within this collection.

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Attach this record to a person in your tree as a source record

Would Allan like to look up the Marriage of Ann Higgins Paterson to Robert Ramsay c1865 Clackmannan ?

I put the name John Jess into Scotlands People for the 1861 census and nothing is coming up in the area of Clakcmannan. Now wondering if the transcript that is on Ancestry is correct. I do not have ancesty so not sure how it works

Jackie

IGI Individual Record FamilySearch™ International Genealogical Index v5.0
British Isles
Search Results | Download | Print

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CHARLOTTE RAMSAY Pedigree
Female


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Event(s):
Birth: 19 SEP 1866 Stirling, Stirling, Scotland

Christening:
Death:
Burial:


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Parents:
Father: ROBERT RAMSAY Family
Mother: ANN HIGGINS PATERSON


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Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.


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Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:

C114901 1855 - 1867 6035516 REGISTER Film NONE


Sheet: 00



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Take that Back
Name: Ann Ramsay
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1844
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : Robert
Gender: Female
Where born: Clackmannan, Clackmannanshire
Registration Number: 644/6
Registration district: St Rollox
Civil parish: Glasgow Springburn
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 10 Colgrain Terrace
ED: 85
Household schedule number: 18
Line: 7
Roll: cssct1881_229b
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Ramsay 57
Ann Ramsay 37
Robert Ramsay 17
Charlotte Ramsay 14
Andrew Ramsay 12
James Ramsay 10
John Ramsay 7
William Ramsay 5
Robina Ramsay 2


Unfortunately, we are unable to display the accompanying images of this census at present, despite extensive negotiation with the General Register Office for Scotland. Permission from them has not, as yet, been forthcoming. For this reason, and to enable you to continue with your family history research, Ancestry has heavily transcribed the Scottish Census records to ensure you have access to all key areas of information contained within this collection.

Save This Record
Attach this record to a person in your tree as a source record, or save for later evaluation.
Save

Source Citation: Parish: Glasgow Springburn; ED: 85; Page: 5; Line: 7; Roll cssct1881_229b; Year: 1881.

Source Information:

Ancestry.com. 1881 Scotland Census [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: The Generations Network, Inc., 2007. Original data: Scotland. 1881 Scotland Census. Reels 1-338. General Register Office for Scotland, Edinburgh, Scotland.

Description:
The 1881 Census for Scotland was taken on the night of 3/4 April 1881. The following information was requested: place, name, relationship to head of family, marital status, age, gender, profession, birthplace, and whether blind, deaf, and dumb. Learn more...
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Does not look like the right one in the census .no childrens names tie them to Charlotte

Can some one look up the Marriage of Ann Higgins Patterson 1865 Clackmannan who was with Chalotte Patterson in 1851 census aged 5.I've done the other ones .Marrying Robert Ramsay