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Im really pleased for you Janey,its good to know its all been worth the trouble of it.

Before I sign off ,what did happen to the 2 eldest sons George 1847 and Charles 1849 born in Cripplegate on the 1851 census.
I dont think that the Charles living in Lambeth as a lodger in 1891 is him as I find him with a mother Ann in 1871.

I have never found a Fred either as per the Tale,maybe he was Anns child and had left home before the 1871 census.

It is amazingly making progress, just starting yesterday! Starting to be able to see things without fuzz. And I think I'm going to come out of it as nearsighted as I want to be. Since the surgery I haven't been able to read print without glasses (computer monitor is okay for the good eye, but it can't read close up) and it has been giving me the horrors; what if I needed glasses to read forever now? The fear of finding myself somewhere w/o reading glasses and not being able to read gives me the cold sweats.

Why was our Wiltshire Perkins shoemaker in London in 1840? And why did he beetle back to Wiltshire with his London bride?

And but of course, why did he change their name ... without letting his eldest son know. ;)

That was the case with the Hills etc. too -- the eldest seem to have stuck with Hill, the youngers switched to Monck. Something happened, but what? in both cases. Somewhere between 1879 and 1881 (children's births as Perkins and then Watkins), eldest son got with the program. Why??

And why they changed their name?
Not stopping out long,worked my bloomin little botty off today,shovels,concrete mixers and wheelbarrows come into it,so my muscules are screaming,AGAIN.
Just thought Id pop in and leave it for analysis.

You feeling better old girl?has your eye made progress?

Edit...
You were correct as usual with it being the correct one and on the W for Watkins of course.

No (self) congratulatory outbursts??

Yay. Watkins Perkins.

That much of the story is now QED.

Now, getting back to that lady-in-waiting ... and why Perkins and Brown married in London ...

Frank Albert Watkins Perkins age 23,house painter,Father,,John,watkins Perkins,,boot maker.
married
Priscilla Attwood age 24,father Henry Attwood,deceased,carpenter.

Both witnesses are her family.

Got subs to 1911 today,,yipeeeeeee

Phew....
Stoopid me ,searched Perkin/s,WatkinS not watkin and forgot all about the search no surname,been off searching passenger lists.


AHHH Sweet ,they have a baby Edwin.

Births Mar 1879
Perkins Agnes Florence P Birmingham 6d 127

Notice the son is Edwin, too. And - Edwin who?

Births Mar 1883
Watkins Edwin Harold Aston 6d 324

The 1881 does say Edwin H.

It also says Frank H:

Births Sep 1881
Watkins Frank Henry P Aston 6d 361

P for Perkins?

Oh you silly. Frank married to Priscilla should just about do it; I threw in place of residence, place of birth and approx date of birth.


Name: Frank R Watkin >> it says Frank *A* probably Watkins
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Priscilla
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Occupation: Foreman >> house painter

Civil parish: Aston

Frank R Watkin 36
Priscilla Watkin 34
Agnes H Watkin 12 >> it says Agnes F, as on the 1881
Frank D Watkin 9
Edwin D Watkin 8
Lilly Watkin 1
Elsia M Watkin 1/12
Florence England 18


BIG *^&%# Q.E.D.!!!!!!

If we could do html that would be in GREAT BIG LETTERS.

Aghhhh,,Frank Perkins and co go AWOL after 1881....

Ordered,we shall see what we shall see on it then.

Just noticed your edit,,,,W,,,Watkins?highly likely then.

Why was he not with Alf and Eliza on 1871 as he was in between their births?

Placed out from the workhouse most like and wanted to stay there,or lost touch with the others,hence the retention of the Perkins?.

I edited --


baptism: Frank Albert Perkins
marriage: Frank Albert **W** Perkins

Watkins???

O.K.
Off to order the marriag,no time like the present.

Possible ???

Deaths Dec 1875 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WATKINS John 57 Hereford 6a 385

Aaaargh!! That one went right past me. What's this "Frank married a Perkins"?

- edit - oh, you meant AS Perkins.

Marriages Dec 1877
> Attwood Priscilla Birmingham 6d 370
Brown Catherine Birmingham 6d 370
Lewellyn John Birmingham 6d 370
> Perkins Frank Albert W Birmingham 6d 370


This is the certificate you want!!!!

If it has one of the Watkins-s on as a witness, it would be THE MISSING LINK.

Of course, it will also be verrrrry interesting to see who he puts as father!!


Aaaahh --

baptism: Frank Albert Perkins
marriage: Frank Albert **W** Perkins

Watkins???

Yes and I got him in 1881 on page 3 with the death of Edwin.

Look who I found in 1871

Name: Frank Perkins
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Lodger
>>> Where born: Bromham, Wiltshire, England
Occupation: Labourer at oil mills

Civil parish: St John The Baptist
Town: Gloucester
County/Island: Gloucestershire


And look where he is in 1881:

Name: Frank A. Perkins
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Priscilla
Where born: Bromham, Wiltshire, England
Occupation: House Painter

Street Address: James Street Bk 21 2 House
Civil parish: Aston
County/Island: Warwickshire

Frank A. Perkins 26
Priscilla Perkins 27
Agnes F. Perkins 2

Dear Dea.

I do want your research as I think its on the mark,and I believe it is the people I have been trying to follow.
Please dont "ditch"it I havent finished organising it in the file yet and if it goes I wont be able to finish copying it off.
And what further info were you after earlier?

viv thanks you Dea((((((((((((hug))))))))))))))))

Hmm, I missed something on that 1851 census.

George Perkins 33 - born: Bromham
Caroline Perkins 30 - born: Brentford
> George Perkins 4 - born: Cripplegate, London
> Charles Perkins 2 - born: Shoreditch, London
Edwin Perkins 1 Mo - born: Bromham


By 1861, George and Charles could have been fending for themselves, and I'd have been missing them with the searches for Perkins born in Bromham/Devizes ...

Oh, oops, you edited, Dea.

What research are you saying isn't far off, that you're going to ditch??

Like I said, the Perkins + Brown marriage, the Perkins births, the Perkins-s in the workhouse -- isn't that what we're all taking as gospel now??

Hey Dea - I think the Perkins births and all are exactly on target. I'm using all that as the hypothesis for the rest!

It's just the Perkins to Watkins transition we need.

Just like with my Hill/Moncks. The one thing I did have, not at the beginning but after I'd found the Hills I decided were my Moncks, was when I found one of the Hills with Monck as a middle name. Clinched the identities. Then I found a reason (for my grx2 gf, the military desertion, but not for his sister, whose middle name it actually was, and who apparently switched first).

Here, the connections are all inference -- the Watkins-s look exactly like the Perkins-s. It's good enough for me, as the Hills being my Moncks pretty much was, but something to definitely link them -- the timing of the switch, a record that matches one of them under name A to him/herself under name B, and/or the reason would be nice to have!