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Can someone please give me some advice regarding my Grandmother 'Kathleen Irving' and her father 'John Irving'.


My G/M Kathleen Irving married Donald Mackay on 20/01/1920 in Halifax.
On the marriage certificate her age is shown as either 27 or 29 (badly written).

I have traced what I believe to be her birth certificate, which shows her being born on 17/09/1890 in Hartley Wintney, Southampton. This works out correct if the age on the marriage certificate is 29.

One of the witnesses (marriage cert) is a Ethel Irving, I have traced Ethel Irving via the 1901 census and I believe her to be Kathleen’s sister, although not with the family at the time of the census, she was staying with an uncle, who’s surname matches Kathleen Irving mothers maiden name, she was also born in Hartley Wintney, Southampton.


On Kathleen birth certificate her father is shown as John William Irving, shown as a ‘baker journey man’.

In the 1901 census he is shown as a John W Irving ‘foreman baker’.

His death certificate (1915) is shown John William Irving and shown as a ‘baker and confectioner’.

On the Kathleen marriage certificate (1920) her father is shown as a John Irving (deceased). But as a plasterer!

Now am I missing something, I’m sure that this is the right Kathleen but the plaster bit is nagging me and causing me to doubt if this is the right Kathleen. Is it normal for this sort of thing to happen? or am I being a bit to picky!!

The assistance of someone wiser than me would be most helpful.

Barry

Hi,
it's unusual for a man to change his occupation when he is a "Tradesman" but it's not unheard of.
It may be a mistake, what was the grooms father's occupation? could they have got it the wrong way round?.....I've seen that happen.

Do you know when your grandmother died as her age would be on her death certificate. Depending when she died sometimes the dob is shown when the death is registered. Good luck Irene

Births Dec 1890 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Irving Kathleen Grace Hartley W. 2c 169


Marriages Mar 1920 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ackroyd Wilfred Booth Halifax 9a 947
Booth Florence Ackroyd Halifax 9a 947
Irving Kathleen Mackay Halifax 9a 947
Mackay Donald Irving Halifax 9a 947

are these the ones you found

If your 100% sure that your Grandfathers name was Donald Mackay then i think you have the correct Marriage cert but the wrong Birth cert for Kathleen.

She Married in Halifax Yorkshire but was born in Southampton??

Oh! bother! Now i'm confussed again!...

He was John William or John W. on everything except the 1920 Marriage cert where he was just John the plasterer?

How SURE are you that you have the correct Marriage?

Yes, these
yes this is person i beleive to be my grandmother

Irving Kathleen Grace Hartley W. 2c 169

and
Irving Kathleen Mackay Halifax 9a 947
Mackay Donald Irving Halifax 9a 947
are my grandmother and grandfather

Grandmother died on 27/03/1946, aged shown as 61 but this does not match up with any births or marriage cert, so i assume that it's a mistake.

grooms father occupation is correct Thatcher.

100 % for corect marriage. but can't any other births that match up.
the 1901 census has the Irvings living in Wootton, basingstoke.

I have some information (but nothing firm) that they may have meet up when Donald was in hospital in 1917, after coming back from the war. but I don't know if nurse's records can be traced? or if she was a VAD, or service's medical.

FOR REFERENCE showing Ethel as the Sister...

1891 England Census
about Kathleen G Irving
Name: Kathleen G Irving
Age: 6/12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John W ...Baker & confectioner.
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Female
Where born: Hartley Wintney, Hampshire, England

Civil Parish: Hartley Wintney
Ecclesiastical parish: Hartley Wintney
Town: Hartley Wintney
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Hartley Wintney
Sub registration district: Hartley Wintney
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Arthur W Irving 3
Ethel B Irving 5
Evelyn M Irving 6
Florence M Irving 7
Harry C Irving 3
John W Irving 40 born: Wantage, Berkshire
Kathleen G Irving 6/12
Mary Irving 41 born: White Waltham, Berkshire
====

1901 England Census
about Kathleen G Irving
Name: Kathleen G Irving
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John W ....Foreman Baker
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Female
Where born: Hartley Wintney, Hampshire, England

Civil Parish: Wootton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Lawrence
Town: Wootton
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Basingstoke
Sub registration district: Basingstoke
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 55
Household Members: Name Age
Arthur W Irving 12
Evelyn M Irving 15
Gertrude M Irving 9
Harry C Irving 13
John W Irving 44
Kathleen G Irving 10
Mary Irving 48 Maidenhead Berkshire

found this Kathkeen G Irving

Marriages Sep 1927 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greene Michael Williams Islington 1b 692
Grime Arthur T Irving Islington 1b 692
Irving Kathleen G Grime Islington 1b 692
Williams Winifrede H Greene Islington 1b 692


The district Islington spans the boundaries of the counties of Greater London, London and Middlesex

so maybe Kathleen Grace birth is the wrong one

Who was the informant on the 1915 death of John W.?

...Maybe Kathleen was unsure of her Fathers occupation when she Married? (clutching at straws here...) Sorry...

Also, Why diddnt she use her full name on the Marriage cert? Kathleen G or Grace?

My head hurts lol

Do you know for a fact that Donald MacKay was your grandfather???? (Apart from what it says on the marriage cert which you have) ??

Dea x

marriage in Halifax, is correct one,100%. that's not her in Islington.

Is this birth yours? Your Mother?

Births Dec 1920

MACKAY Sheila Irving Halifax 9a 726

There was another marriage in 1915:

Marriages Dec 1915

Collins Alfred Irving Salisbury 5a 505
***Irvining Kathleen G Collins Salisbury 5a 505

Image actually says Irving !!

Dea x

John Williams died 11/09/1915, informant was a Gertrude Maud Irving, daughter. died in Bramley Southampton

and yes Donald mackay was my Grandfather 100%

Births Dec 1920

MACKAY Sheila Irving Halifax 9a 726

yes that's my mother,

Census night in 1891 was 5 April .

She is said to be 6 months old on the 1891....

This makes her birth correct as Sept 1890.

I think this is something you will have to put down as a mystery that will never be solved and Kathleen Guessed her Fathers occupation at the time of Marriage!

Dont forget that way back then...people diddnt even know thier Fathers Christian name let alone his occupation!


...OR?.....

Maybe they eloped? Ran away to get Married....

I wonder if it was anything to do with marrying beneath her!! and against her families wishes.

but do you think that this is the correct Kathleen?

Hey! it happened! still does today.

Yes I do think you have the correct BDMs Just a shame she diddnt show her middle name on that Marriage!
Nothing else comes even close...

Did she show her middle name (Grace) on your Mothers birth cert? (PLEASE say no!!!)

No birth cert just as Kathleen Mackay formerly Irving.

on her death cert, is say Kathleen, otherwise Catherine MacKay.

done as search for a Catherine irving as well, but no match ups