General Chat

I have not read all of this thread but my OH is on JS at the moment. He must make an application every day I think.

So, you are a small business, having to spend a lot of time and effort to make sure you have enough work to keep ticking over and have the need of an extra member of staff for some reason.

I can see how zero hours and basic wage can help keep these small businesses running in these difficult times and maybe keep the possibility of having businesses to grow and expand when the economic situation improves.

What I can't understand is how anybody can benefit from businesses having to sort through a great number of applications from people with no experience of or even inclination toward their line of work who have made application simply because they a required to.

http://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/zero_hours_contracts_flexible_workforce_446810_news.aspx

http://www.channel4.com/news/zero-hours-amazon-vince-cable-cipd-survey

I managed a medium sized scaffolding company for many years and we had our own quota of scaffolders employed on our payroll, six squads, sufficient to cover our normal volume of projects from our usual clients.

Apart from our routine projects we would tender for major projects and when we won a tender we would contact an employment agencies that specialised in providing operatives to the construction industry (not a recruitment agency as they are a different kind of beast) and tell them we needed scaffolders and drivers.

The agency would send dozens of individuals to us and my foreman and I would choose the ones we thought were best suited for the project and send the rest away.

Those we selected were not employed by us, they were employed by the agency, my foreman or I signed off their time sheets and the operatives submitted that to the agency and the agency paid them. The agency was responsible for dealing with anything related to their wages such as tax and national insurance contributions, they were also responsible for any entitlement, if there was any, to sick pay and holiday pay etc.

I can see the attraction that is driving a lot of firms & organisations to the agency worker model - it saves them considerable sums of money by avoiding the hassle of the current red tape of employment legislation.

Why is it that in 2013 some 180 years after the amendment to the Poor Law was introduced in 1834 by the then the Whig government, that so much of the rhetoric and propaganda, that I read and hear, from this elitist government, makes me draw a comparison with that amendment :-(

In 1834 a new Poor Law was introduced. Some people welcomed it because they believed it would reduce the cost of looking after the poor, take beggars off the streets, and encourage poor people to work hard to support themselves.

The new Poor Law ensured that the poor were housed in workhouses, clothed and fed. Children who entered the workhouse would receive some schooling. In return for this care, all workhouse paupers would have to work for several hours each day :-(

To my mind, 'Zero hours' smacks of what they used to do in the Docks. You turned up at 6am, certain people were chosen to work for the day - the rest can just.............(expletive deleted)........
Go home and come back the next morning.
My grandad used to work in Southampton Docks in the 1920's. One day his mate was seriously injured. He went off with said mate to the hospital.
They didn't employ my grandad for over a month as a form of 'punishment' for leaving site to help his friend.
Aaah - the 'good old days'.

No dole then, though. Fortunately he had lodgings with compassionate people (a belated 'thank you' to the Fanestones :-D )

Yes, I have civil servant friends in the public sector whose wages have been frozen for 3 years now so they are feeling the pinch too.

Your son sounds as if he is most likely paying enough NI in a year for it to count for his state pension as well John. The important thing to do is keep HMRC informed of any change of address as they write to let you know if there is a shortfall in any tax year. Addresses given to employers that get passed on to departments might not be correct for various reasons so a direct notification has to be made.

Those pension points are interesting, Annx. When you are on benefits, they do pay your stamp for you - which is a huge benefit when you get to OAP age.

My son is on a 19 hours a week contract and usually works at least 30 hours - so a sort of mini zero hours contract. But he gets a good pension with his contributions matched or more by his employer. Those who were not in his company's pension scheme have now been told they will automaticaly have pension stopped out of their wages unless they opt out.

But I will be interested to see how these casual workers and zero contracters fare with pensions going forward. We do need profits for investment going forward in private sector, and presumably it is the same in the public sector. So we will all (almost all) have to accept lower standards of living each year for some years to come. :-(

You're right Annx

I think zero hours, used to be called 'Agency work'!

No....... zero contracts are not good if you have a mortgage to pay. They are good and desirable for some though, people like Gins and students living at home, people who want extra work to their main job, people who are retired and want a bit of extra income but without being tied into a contract or set hours like them too. Casual workers are similar but the difference between the zero contract and casual workers is that zero contract workers can be entitled to employee benefits like paid holiday and redundancy pay.

What about the position for your state pension though? Casual workers can sign on to get NIC credits for the weeks they have no work. Can zero contract workers do the same if they are technically 'employed'? If not, then there's the possibility those employees may lose out on years to qualify for their state pension.......unless they can afford to top them up within the time limits that is.

Sorry to be off topic a bit, but things are often very complex.

It is all down to a policy of putting downward pressure on wages while allowing profits to rise. This may be slightly of topic, but I can see more young people joining the dole as it is being reported that Jeremy Hunt the Secretary of State for Health wants to stop the 1% pay rise for all NHS staff in England that is due to be paid from next year, and that could well deter young people from working for the NHS in any capacity.

I'm on one!!!!!!!!!!

And when the 1.4m unemployed start working for nothing, what happens to the people who's jobs they will take?

So, all you street cleaners etc, you'll be unemployed soon and doing the same job for your dole :-|

The last time I signed on was 11 years ago when we lived in a rural area of Northants. Job Centre was 5 miles away and no bus on day of signing (two shopper buses per week only). So it was bicycle or walk, as OH was working and needed car.

Then they closed local JC, and I had to travel 16 miles away to Northampton!!! Think that was cycle 5 miles then bus last 11 miles. And I was absolutely desperate for work, as a lot of people were - and are.

Time before that (only other time, thank goodness) was in 1990 in Wrexham area. JC was realy excellent then, and even had an Executive Club to give you help with CVs, interviews. And free telephone and help with job search costs, loads of newspapers etc.

This new initiative of IDS might work - but it will need a huge investment in buildings, staff, taxi fares, travel costs etc.

Anyone fancy opening a workhouse?

I'm sure we could persuade the government to fund it.

:-0 :-| :-P

I'm on a zero hours contract(s), it works well for me as I have my own business and can come and go at Uni's/College's as and when I like.

I have the option of taking work or not, having holidays etc but it doesn't work for many (you did see my previous avatar)

How can a person get a mortgage when they have no guaranteed income. They will receive no sick/holiday/redundancy pay - totally out of order, imho

As for visiting the JCP every day, it's a joke. How are they going to manage that process. Take on more staff or just work the ones they have into the ground :-|

Thankyou, OFITG and Rose :-D

A zero hour contract according to one legal source is a contract designed to create, an on call arrangement, between employer and employee, and is most commonly used by employment businesses who provide temporary work and short term assignments within different organisations. The most important thing about a zero hours contract is that it does not oblige the employer to find work for the employee. These are now being widely used by many other organisations other that employment businesses as their is no legislation that defines their use.

The employment agency ask an individual to sign a contract which makes them what is known as an agency worker, more often than not this is a zero hour contract, and the individual will not be treated as unemployed as they sre on the agency's payroll and deemed to be employed

It means John that you are not guaranteed the minimum number of hours you work, eg the employer may say we need you 30 hours this week, but if we don't need you 30 hours next week it will be 10 or 0 or 50 if someone else can't come in... there is just no guarantee of hours and income and i don't see how anyone with commitments can do it.

Have heard this expression zero hours contract but have not understood it. Does anyone know what it means?

Yesterday, I heard the NUM in Wales spokesperson saying that one mine (there is still a bit happening) had had to put his members on a zero hour contract. First time ever in coal mining. Do you get holidays, notice etc? My memory of employment law is that, whatever your contract says, if you have been employed regularly for so many hours, that becomes your contract - no matter what the words say. Think technical words are implicit and explicit terms of employment.

And what are they meant to do at the Job Centre all day. Once they have scanned the computers to see if there are any jobs available, which can take up to 15 minutes......

My partner is a Postman and really hates his job, and would love to find part-time work (in a supermarket etc.) so a few weeks ago I took him down to the local job centre in Woolwich. Took a book as I was expecting to have to sit and wait for some time!!! Less than 10 minutes later he was back. NOTHING.

And I regularly apply online to Tesco, M & S (they have the most complicated web site I have ever encountered) and many other supermarkets. Most never both replying. And I know from my nephews personal experience that one of the very cheap supermarkets only looks at applications from people with foreign surnames. His has Polish ancestors on fathers side, hence the foreign surname and when he went for an interview he was told that they were shocked he was English as his surname had thrown them. He got the job in their warehouse in Erith. Poorly paid and has had to move back home with parents as he cannot afford to pay any form of private rent and get to work and live generally.....

And do not get me started on Zero Hours contracts......

No I don't mind John, though I admit on the topic of economics my eyes have glazed over in much the same way that they do when Dan is explaining almost anything from his networking course or mentions 'sub-prime' 'ponzi schemes' or 'quantative easing' ;-)

I am a simple soul :-) " Many a mickle makes a muckle'? lol.

edit, very interesting replies though, so thanks to all

:-D

Totally agree, Gins. I was such a fan of Keynes. I did economics at Uni in 1960's and my professor was a keen Keynesian. So were his tutors.

And it was a brilliant theory of how to run the economy. But there were key things missing that I began to realise as years progressed. We have to be so careful to keep our minds open, use our eyes and ears and be prepared to alter our views sometimes.

Just noticed we are all wavering a lot from Opening Post about these new rules for dole claimants :-( Hope you don't mind, Rose