General Chat

Because perhaps Gill, he is not mentally or physically equipped to fight...not every man or boy is you know... the men who go to fight there CHOOSE to ,there is no getting away from that simple fact...whether one believes it is right or wrong that our army is there.

... ...as you point out he is now a British citizen...maybe he feels he never wants to see the country of his birth again after what it did to his family? Maybe he is not out their fighting...but that does not mean he is not aware or supportive of those who are...I'm not out there either, nor are you, nor are millions of others in the UK..it doesn't mean one doesn't care...

That was one case...I posted it because there is this reliance on 'statistics', nameless numbers of 'asylum seekers', 'immigrants' whatever ... each one is a person with a different story, different fears, different hopes...different ideologies...not just 'them' .

Just as each soldier who goes is a person in their own right, and has a choice in their own right. Heroes for making the choice they do.

Yes so could many you british people do a lot for this country .... it's his country we are debating ....

Afghanistan where he should be doing his bit for his own family that has died in his homeland.

Gill

Think like I do, Rita? By acknowledging the right of others to make choices that will or could protect us, and put themselves in danger, even though we are crying with every fibre of our being, no, don't go, don't do it?

They believe that what they are doing now is helping, will help, and will give the Afghanis a democratic government that does not include the Taliban... the terrorist makers, the people who have cruelty and subjugation at their core. Who encourage and fund and train those who embrace martyrdom, suicide bombers, terrorists. Who have already been sent out and struck at Twin Towers, the heart of London, Madrid, and many other places.

That is who they are trying to stop. Not the Afghani people, just the Taliban.

You seem to think that people with opinions like mine do not care what happens to our soldiers, that only you and those who want *our boys* out, really do care... they were your words, not mine. That is what has made me cross and angry... I can understand where you are coming from, and why you believe some of the things you have read in the gutterpress... the media is swamped with it right now.

But to decide that my point of view is coloured by a lack of care is just not true.

But we DO care. I just understand in a very different way to you.

Rita,

What is the point of debate unless people produce evidence to back up their pointsof view? That's what debate is about, facts.

I am interested in the facts behind debates not wild speculation and emotional responses to untruths.

Kevin said there were thousands of terrorists walking the streets, he admitted he was wrong when Rose challenged him. Anyone can say anything, true or not, to back up an opinion but it's better to quote true evidence, isn't it?

Edit

As usual Daff has hit the nail on the head.

Gwynne

OK Rose, if ww3 was to break out within the next 5 years and the call ups go out to all able bodied brits what will he do then? move, surrender his citizenship perhaps or maybe the oldest trick in the book - shoot himself in the foot. Thank god for the british services, they will always go out and clean up other peoples wars even if they do get killed in the process.

My heart is sickened by all this molly coddling of asylum seekers when they are quite capable of being trained up to fight for 'their' country.

Gill

Gill,

That's exactly what I mean by wild speculation. WW3 is not going to break out so it's pointless speculating what one man will or will not do.

Gwynne

He is now a British subject Gill. No debate there.. He has skills that will and are invaluable. He may or may not choose to use them in the country of his birth. If he isn't cut out to be a soldier, then so be it. He will save lives other ways. It restores an equilibrium... one day, one of those soldiers might have a son or daughter, or grandchild, whose life will be saved by this young man. What goes around, comes around. That saying goes for good, as well as ill.

I am now off to enjoy some fresh air and sunshine as the rain has stopped

Rita...Gill specifically asked for some statistics...she had none to offer of her own re the number of asylum seekers from Afghanistan here...but asked me how many of our troops came back in boxes...


I make no apologies for referring to an item in the press ... it tells a personal story, it puts a face to a nameless statistic...much as each poor soul in the forces who dies fighting is a name and a family and a life,,,not just a statistic Yes of course everyone can read websites...if they can google...but I thought it was actually rather relevant to put that info, and the previous statistics ...because of the amount of 'misinformation' taken as 'gospel' by readers of rubbish newspapers! ... read what you wish, ignore what you don't want to.


Any death of any young person fighting in any war anywhere is a tragedy... there are no two ways about that... and there have been plenty of people who have said we shouldn't be in all those wars I mentioned earlier....

would I discourage my son, yes... but if the army was his choice? would I be proud that he thought more of others than himself? ..oh yes...just as I am proud of any members of my family that served in other wars ( as they did) .

Have you a glass ball Gwynne?

I remember my family saying people were saying similar after the 1st world war....ww2 hit them hard they were not ready by any means.

We none of us know what is out there ... near future or distant ... I stand by what I stated. I have my opinion to state in a debate just like everyone else.

Gill

Gill you are being silly...if there is a third World war and like WW1 and 2 conscription is necessary, then everybody of the right age and health would be conscripted ( unless because of their place of biirth classed as an enemy alien of course )

" Molly coddling". asylum seekers...people living in fear?

No I don't think giving them sanctuary is 'mollycoddling'... letting them stay and contribute something to British society.... no I wouldn't call that molly coddling...

but be grateful I stopped myself saying what I really wanted to here...because I don't do 'molly coddling ' either!

"people were saying similar after the 1st world war....ww2 hit them hard they were not ready by any means." -

And people said it would be a 20-year truce.

I don't need a glass ball, Gill, I'm an educated woman who reads a lot about world affairs, as I said, I prefer facts to uninformed speculation.

There were many warning voices before WW2 happened, they were just ignored. In the 1920s my grandfather told my father there would be another war.

I'll see you here in five years and we'll see who was right.

Gwynne

Yes Gwynne believe it or not I am well educated too, history alone teaches us to be prepared however, as we neither know what is in the future it will be interesting to see what happens in the next 5 years.

I will bow out of this debate now as it seems I am being silly and cannot state my thoughts. I don't want a row and will not take part in one. We have all had our say .... just how a debate should be.

Gill

Not selfish at all when you weep, Rita. But I, too, weep, and one of your posts implied that people with my view don't, and that is wrong. You made an assumption about me that was just not based on fact, but based because I had an opinion that opposed your own.

I have lost a couple of personal friends, in Afghanistan, NI, elsewhere too... people who have sat at my table and had meals with us. Every time I hear of another, I get that cold clutch of fear again... just like when my husband was away, and when I heard the news that another soldier injured/dead. I learned how to dampen down my fear, and pin a smile on my face, and get on with bringing up our boys with positivity, to believe in what their daddy was doing.

So care? Too right I care.

would you have preferred Gill , that I didn't use the word silly...and substitute it with 'lacking in forethought and compassion'? because I am happy to do so...

I use the word 'silly' in the way I would use it to someone in general conversation if I thought their reasoning was at fault in an argument..I use the term to friends ...have you never told a friend that they were being 'silly' if you disagreed with them ?

ok Rose

I accept your reasoning of that terminology. I have had my say in this debate anyway, I have no more to add.

Gill

The problem is how can we fight wars abroad when we cant fight on own streets they need to bring back hanging then we dont have to deal with these people when they get out off prison after serving little time in side for grimes that should carry the death penatly

oh Kevin...we've moved on from hanging ...too many innocent people hung by mistake, too late to do anything about them... and if you're suggesting it just for terrorists, then I'm afraid all that does is make a martyr out of a criminal, and encourage others to follow.

Hi Rita,

I understand your point but hope the following sentence was not aimed at me

*I knew someone would come back with leave them to fight it out they signed up for the army so should expect it.and are out there for a cause*

If so perhaps I can suggest that my post is re-read and taken for what I actually wrote and in the manner it was written. If not I apologise for getting shirty.

We are a Military family too and the suggestion that we don't care is offensive.

I spoke to my son tonight and he agrees that some parents and sons/daughters are not prepared for what the job entails.

He also says that he and others he enlisted with would like support from their parents and the rest of the country, but would wince if parents were to go on television or speak to the Press and bemoan the fact that their children are in war zones and could Jimmy/Johnny have a sick note ( so to speak).

As for others who don't want to fight....Good on them too for having the guts to say so......I am afraid I am too much of a Scardy cat to be as brave as those who fight for our country no matter what.

Yes it may be a frutless task or one we will never understand. But let us not do the job of the enemy and dishearten our brave Military or embarrass them by our fears.

My Son, as I have already said, was fully aware of what he was letting himself in for. Luckily he came away in one piece. And Yes I would still have been proud that he served his country because he wanted to, not because he was forced to.

Good on you Lads and Lasses who fight, have fought and will fight. Without you we would be nothing.

Rita my heart goes out to your nehews and your Grandson i hope they keep god bless them.Its a shame that we have people in this country who wish them harm and thats some off are own.I find that we should get behind are troops give them support i went to a charity do and i asked if i could raise money for my charity Help the heroes.Well i was looked at as if i had said something wrong never got a reply.