General Chat

The reasons I placed punishment and deterrent together are as follows:

If an individual, as a potential criminal, sees by a well-publicised case that getting caught will result in a severe sentence, with no frills inside (the punishment), then they may think twice before committing the crime (therefore it becomes deterrent).

Furthermore, if punishing a criminal makes them think twice about committing another criminal act upon their release (because they don't ever want to go back inside), then surely the punishment has acted as a deterrent?

Hi Ed

thanks for provoking a bit of thought.

Ref your second point "Furthermore, if punishing a criminal makes them think twice about committing another criminal act upon their release (because they don't ever want to go back inside), then surely the punishment has acted as a deterrent?" - how do you apply this theory to the case in point? Just how does Biggs think twice? Assuming of course that he's in a position to think at all?

Sue x

I come back to my original proposition - what's the point?

just a thought here before i go up,i do know Sue that you are pragmatic,
but if Ian Brady and Myra hindley had committed their horrendous and obviously (sex based crimes) by that i think they both got off on them)
Would todays obviously weak judicial system have given them life
while the us are prepared to exradite an aspergers victim to the states for hacking into national security systems to prove the existence of little green men ( he could get life)
Makes you wonder (if this don,t make sense its cos im tired
igor

of course you have to punish crime - you teach a child what is right and wrong and if they persist in doing the same naughty thing you persist doling out some kind of punishment or penalty until they realise that they must not do it - you have to show a child what is right and what is wrong to prepre them for life - if they have failed to learn that by the time they are an adult then that is where the law has to step in and issue the punishment. You would hope that whilst serving a prison sentence they would see the error of their ways and decide to take a different road in life on release

I would hope that the vast majority of us have been brought up to be fair and honest, although we quickly learn that life is not fair and people are not always honest, but we continue to be fair and honest ourselves in spite of everything. If someone wrongs me, burgles my house say or steals my car, I want them to have to pay for that crime in some way - why should they take what is mine and get away scot free.

I do not think prison is the place for crimes such as fraud say - punishment can be doled out without a custodial sentence but for physical crimes of violence and murder then prison is the place and the sentence should be served in full - the fact that someone has confessed to a heinous crime should not lessen their sentence, why should it.

People who abuse children, such as the case of Baby P, should never again be allowed to have children in their care and unless compulsory sterilisation is brought in for such creatures, any children they may have in the future should be immediately removed from them - they should also go on a register as sex offenders have to

I do like a good debate - shall get off my soapbox now and wait for the flak!!!!!

Sorry I just want to pick up on one comment below, I just have to!

".........the Moors Murderer's crimes are distant and forgotten."...not by anyone I know!

By the way.I wasa Deputy Governor........not an inmate.........

certainly not forgotten by me Rose - I remember with horror that little girl Lesley Anne Downe pleading with Myra Hindley that she wanted her Mum - no way is that forgotten

agrees with rose

i will never forget that tape those monsters made
it makes me cringe thinking of it
nobody who has heard it could ever forget

in our local paper a week or so back a man in his seventies was convicted of sex crimes against children - happened many years ago but as with these sort of cases, took a long time for the victims to buck up the courage to speak about it - when one spoke out others came forward and the monster came to court - he is in his seventies and suffering from cancer, but he was given a prison sentence and told he would remain in gaol until he died - quie right too!!

Ref your last paragraph. by all means, not , Ann. You'll get no flak from me.

Going way back to my original post, I said then that there were some deviants who have to be kept away from us all, for our own protection.

The point I was trying to make (in the light of recent publicity) was - what is to be gained by denying Ronald Biggs his freedom, and his son a bit of time with his father?

Nobody to my knowledge has argued that he's about to threaten us in any way, so I can only conclude that there's a revenge thing going on here.

And, if that's the case, we're all belittled.


Sue x

Hi Rose
Agreed a long time ago but still very high profile even now as Ian Brady has once again refused to co operate and tell the police where the third body is buried (or only for favours)
Jack Stalker has said they tried to do it virtually by running computer enhanced geograpphy of Saddleworth Moor.
What is the point he's going to die in jail (the longest hunger strike in memory) so why not give some people a chance to bury him properly
igorxx

it was on the news today - apparently Ian Brady has agreed to help the police find Keith's body but doubt it will be found - they've taken him and Myra to the moors before and they failed

apparently Brady is as mad as a box of frogs and has been for some years - I worked at our local psychiatric hospital for thirty years and one of our Nursing Officers had to go to Broadmoor with one of our patients - he saw Brady whilst there and said he was absolutely barking

this is always an immotive subject and could be argued for ever more with no real conclusions.
Suffice to say and in my opinion the judicial system in this country is c**p
Just to finally say that if somebody breaks into your property with a gun, knife whatever for gods sake do,nt hurt them co.s you will end up in prison something called weapon toting burglers rights
igor

well you really should not have a knife in the first place - elf and safety and all that - and of course there are the human rights of the burglar to consider

And ( before i return to watching 'Love Actually' on the telly ...softie lol)

I never 'bought' Hindley's conversion to Catholicism, her apparent ( lost the word!) 'remorse' will do ....if she had been genuinely 'repentant' as a Catholic or a human being , IMO she would never have asked for release and would not have rested until she had given police the location of the other victim. ( I was only 9 when they were convicted , sheltered from the news then no doubt, but still remember it).

You'll get no argument from me, Igor

If anyone threatened me or mine, I'd do what I had to do, and bugger the consequences.

That's not the point, though (with respect).

what I was trying to say was that a line has to be drawn between protecting society and revenge.

By all means, protect ourselves. But revenge, for its own sake, belittles us all.

Sue x

Hi Sue,

Sorry I didn't reply yesterday, I had other more pressing things to do.

I guess my point is that by being seen to be punished, then Biggs's treatment by the judicial system will act as a deterrent to others.

Lets get some other points up here anyway:

1. Biggs was sentenced in the 60s, when sentencing was harsher under an older law. Whilst this older law no longer applies, he still has to complete his sentence under the older law from which it was applied. If this was not the case, then I believe it would set a legal precedent which would allow other serious criminals sentenced at the same time to argue for their release, just because they were old and infirm.

2. They robbed a mail train. There used to be (and may still be) a crime called "Tampering with Her Majesty's Royal Mail". This was considered a VERY serious criminal offence. Without going into details, I know of someone who was sentenced to several years in prison for this offence (but with much less money involved). Therefore, the sentence was proportionate considering the sums involved. This is not about revenge.

3. The Moors Murderers are not a valid comparison. They committed an altogether different, heinous crime that disgusted the entire world. Whilst it was over 40 years ago, their acts will never be forgotten or forgiven. No politician would ever release Ian Brady - they would be committing political suicide if they dared to even suggest it.

4. If he hadn't escaped, stuck his fingers up at the UK, and served his time like a good boy, Biggs would be out by now. (You never know, maybe he'd even have been released early?) You make your choices in life and you have to pay the consequences in the end. Biggs made his choice; he's now paying the consequence. Therefore, I have no sympathy for him.

Ed

Derek,

Regarding your comment:

"So lets stop a moment and consider what actually hapened to jack MIlls....he ac`ually got a smack on the head.as he had to do to make it look realistic.............for which he was paid handsomely!!......."

Are you seriously claiming that the train driver Jack Mills was part of the gang and got a cut of the proceeds?

If so you are out of order. I was a trade union official at the time. There was little sick pay on British Railways in the 1960's and we organised a nationwide collection so that he and his wife could keep the wolf from the door. To say he got a pay-off is libellous and quite frankly the most disgusting allegation I have seen on these pages.

"Biggs, 79, is recovering in Norfolk and Norwich University hospital after breaking his hip in a fall in jail last weekend. Biggs, who will be 80 next month, has suffered three strokes over the last two years.

He communicates through gestures and by spelling out words with an alphabet board. He is fed through a tube in the stomach and can walk only a few steps unaided.

He is likely to be in hospital several weeks and while there, three prison guards from HMP Norwich, are ordered to keep a 24-hour watch. "


Like he's going to make a break for freedom!

Rambling Rose, have you thought why there are 3 guards? If there was only one guard and some undergound figures, (or even a gutter newspaper), "sprung" Biggs, then everyone would be complaining that the justice dept. was not doing its job properly.

The piece of low-life scum Ian Brady is of no danger to the public now. He is a mental and physical wreck, but we have a lot of security to keep him inside. Thank goodness.