General Chat

I bow to your greater knowledge Eldrick, as mine is zilch on the subject

MRI = magnetic resonance imaging - used as a sort of 3d xray machine for looking inside the body.

Used every day for all sorts of reasons - bad backs, brain scans, you name it, the MRI machine does it.

Without any harm at all being caused.

My point is 50 years ago there will have been someone just like you stating something or other is a "quack remedy" but today science has proved it can happen so its FACT!!

Science itself is based on man's knowledge and as scientists aren't god they can't be allowed to come up with theories that disprove what works for some people and the placebo effect doesn't answer all things that scientists can't prove!

D

Hi Pink. Well, if you can give me an example I would be much better informed - I still really don't get your point.

I'm talking about quack remedies like magnetsim and homepathy - I mean - it doesnt take science to tell you what a load of old rubbish those theories are, does it!

That like cures like and the more dilute the better? Why does it take science to make that leap of faith - or are we not entitled to use common sense to say that something diluted to the equivalence of a grain of rice in a BILLION solar systems cannot possibly have any effect whatsoever.......some of those remedies state on their own packaging that they are diluted 10 to the power of 1,500 - (it is estimated that all the atoms in the visible universe amount to 10 to the power of 80)

The same with magnetism - it requires a leap of faith that suspends common sense.

What is so terrrible about the placebo effect being the answer? If it works, then it is good, surely?

Perhaps I should have taken more care in how I put it and exchanged 'harmful' for amount/quantity etc...was still just an idle thought :-)

If it seems to work for some people then there is no real harm....As has already been said.....Science has been proved to be wrong many times.....one reason I sit on the fence.

Susan
:-)

What has science been proved to be wrong about?

Sorry Eldrick.....my Googling skills are not up to scratch to find sources today, and my writing skills would not be able to do justice to my thoughts......perhaps it would be best if I let someone else who has more time than myself at the moment to delve into what is an in depth and volatile, at times, subject :-)))

Not really. Placebo = fooling yourself that you are taking something that you arent but because you believe you are it may work...

Mind over matter is a conscious means of overcoming somthing by will power

At least thats how I would explain it.

I dont see any need for anything to get volatile Susan....:-)

Just when you said that Science has often been wrong, I thought you may have had something in mind.

please let's not get volatile - I don't like volatile!!!!

No-ones getting volotile Ann

I said *volatile, at times*


Placebo surely means being 'fooled' by others administering ...not ones self....If it was ones self, surely it wouldn't work, as one would 'know'...then it would have to be mind over matter......In my humble opinion...that is :-)

Thought I had already answered the last Eldrick.....

*and my writing skills would not be able to do justice to my thoughts*

Susan
:-)

Really must go now...sorry I can't stay to debate any longer...would really love to but.....have paint to clear up :-)

In the context of magnetism and homeopathy, I would stick to the 'fooling yourself' argument - after all, the explanation is there for everyone to see - there is nothing hidden or scientifically challenging about it.....2 minutes on google will enlighten anyone!

So I think anyone using any or either of this type of holistic treatment is fooling themselves - but only as to the REASON why the treatment is working.

But it is rather a moot point I suppose - there is no denying that on occasions these things DO work. My interest, as I say, is in he placebo effect and the power of belief.

Hi Linda. Yes, it could be that a person has a different body make up...although I can't imagine in what way....

or it could be the placebo effect, which is well studed and known aboutand fits perfectly.

I dont see why there is a need to designate some sort of paranormal or unknown label to these things when the answer is already there and has been shown under strict test conditions to be the case.

Well, I can be sure that there isnt such a thing as the twin headed spindly killer fish from Aberdeen called Dennis.

Granted, I can't prove that there is no such thing, but I can use my common sense, my knowledge of life in general and what scientific knowledge I have and also have access to......

As for the God thing, I am a total no. 7 Atheist - as per Professor Richard Dawkins and his excellent book - The God Delusion'.

I don't say that everyone should be as sceptical or even cynical as me, but the psychology of the human belief system is something I find immensely interesting.

I go along with the different body make up idea

Some arthritic drugs work well on some people and have no effect on others.... or nasty side effects which dont come out on other people.
The same with perscribed creams for psoriasis and other skin conditions.

If it is down to different body make up.....let me ask this question then.

Some people are affected and helped by weak magnets plaeced on their wrsits, knees, other joints, whatever. The ones that it works for are 'different' in some unspecified way to others for whom it DOESN'T work...?

Is this right?

OK. Then how come the effect of MRI scans on EVERYONE is exactly the same - after all, it is the most powerful magnet that anyone is ever likely to come into contact with - and that effect is absolutely ZERO......?

Does that not knock the 'different body make up' theory on the head?

And put the placebo effect back into pole position?

Therein lies the paradox.

My mind is anything but closed. It is the people who refuse to use common sense, their own senses and utilise the knowledge that is available that are close minded!

What is close minded about demanding proof....how is it close minded to say that something so diluted as to have absolutely no trace of the original article can possibly have any effect....?

Where did I say that my knowledge of life is any better than any one elses? Let me look...no, I didn't say that anywhere, nor did I imply it. I said I used my knoweldge of life. Nothing more - everyone surely has a knowedge of life...?

You and I both know that there is no such thing as Dennis. To suggest otherwise would be ridiculous. So why believe in other things as equally ridiculous?

AS I say, it's interesting.

In my opinion..................*hides bracelet* I think a closed mind is one that says...........it can't be true, there's no proof.

An open mind will say I wonder why it works for some people and not others.

Open to any theories, not just the scientifically proven ones.

"Does that not knock the 'different body make up' theory on the head? "


Im afraid not :))
Having been given umpteen different drugs by a qualified doctor and specialist over a number of years I think I can safely say not everything works for every person because I still haven't got the right one and other people have.

I would dearly love something to work too

MRI scanners are still pretty new and they are still investigating the long term effects according to one of the better newspapers:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2004444/MRI-scanners-to-be-examined-for-cancer-link.html

you got a good point there, i had an mri scan on my wrist last friday, spent 20 mins laying on my front with affected hand outstreached doing a superman impression...my head was still in the machine, no earplugs and deff no piped music :(
sorry digressing, have been told those mag braclets would help, so would steriod injections my choice, so if mags help why didnt the mri scan eliviate the pain for those 20 mins instead of 1/ giving me an almighty headache and 2/ make my hand stiff as you like with shooting pains.....
i think what i'm saying is those mags might not help me... :(
as for body make up, yes i've been told by one of those holistic treatment people that we have elictricity passing through us, from our head through to our feet.. bear with me... if there is a blockage or something stopping the natural flow, we can incure sweelings and abnormal behaviour...our brains go a bit haywire, so they reconmend mag braclets as these pass the flow properly again...
hope that makes sence..... :))) xxxx
i ended up paying over £300 on treatments on my son to find out he was deaf, partially sighted, dyspraxic, asd by my dr...... so no wouldnt go to another ever again, but please dont let my experiance stopp you.
take care, kaz xxx

yep, fair comment - but a closed mind is when there is a totally suitable, scientifically proved answer and disregarding it for a new age 'mysterious' one that has no basis in science imho!