Genealogy Chat

I was very sceptical too Heather. It really didn't seem likely that ag labs could be closely related to nobility.

I double checked the lines back and there weren't many steps between my 2x great grandmother Sarah Ann Fines and my 8x great Henry Clinton-Fiennes the 2nd Earl of Lincoln.

Once you get there it links into Burkes Peerage and all sorts of well researched sites. I have found some dodgy lines way back but the main ones are sound and well accepted.

What a lot of people don't seem to have explored are the lines back from some of the women and those have turned up a lot of the most interesting ones.

Sue

LOL - so we probably are related!

Oh Sue, have to say I havent added anything back before about 1600 on my FTM, Im still a sceptical old ********** - you can see how frustrated my enthusiastic cousin gets with me. I want it all black and white when it will always be grey. I suppose I should relax and accept we have found the right lines and start adding it to my stuff.

I was just SO sceptical that the guys who had become watermen/lightermen could be only 3 generations away from an aristo but I have seen now that it does happen - in fact Ive found the younger sons being apprenticed to various trades when their elder bro go on to illustrious careers and remain titled.

When the other - Gamages line - person contacted me and told me that my lot were from the Gamages shop line and all the other details going back to Wales I wrote back saying, No I dont think so, my lot were making boxes in London at that time. But back she came saying Oh yes, the cousins were involved in box making for the Gamages shop! LOL. Just shows you how you can be too iffy about the lineage whereas others are happy to add Adam and Eve without a second glance.

We probably are Heather.

I've got early Suttons (Dudleys) too.

My 11x great grandmother is Elizabeth Dudley b. abt. 1488 Hatherington, Sussex who was the daughter of Edmund Dudley.b.abt.1472 beheaded Tower Hill 2 Aug. 1510
So Elizabeth I's favourite Robert Dudley is a distant cousin of mine.

I have a huge ahnentafel now and I am willing to compare ancestors if you want to PM me.

Sue
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It will happen Simon - whenever I feel low at a dead end after a few months up comes something new and off I go again. Have you tried National Archives, google books, A2A?

I'm struggling to get back any further than 1700 - 1800 with my Ancestors.

I would love to go back a few more hundred years.

Good luck with your research

Strange thing is Sue, once I found the lines and had sketchy ideas, I havent put a lot of effort into looking at them. I dont know why. I spose cos Ive got used to the idea of having certs etc. and of course you dont get that once you are back beyond 16th century.

And I dont know about you, but when I first started realising where my line was leading, I sort of had a disbelief, that I was kidding myself. Fact is I have apprenticeship records, court records, wills etc. to back it up but I still had terrible self doubts. My cousin (only found through this research!) got a bit despairing of me constantly wanting more and more confirmation of lines and I guess we have done everything possible virtually to ensure this is the right line. In fact blanks that worried me have become filled as time goes on - like the will which mentions one supposed direct ancestor and I searched and searched for his death because otherwise I couldnt tie it in with the son (who was my direct ancestor). Blow me, I was doing a google book search (brilliant that) and up comes this chap - with mention he was lost at sea on a journey back from the Indies - ships name, date everything - tied in beautifully with my bloke and such a relief. I couldnt stand not being sure of a line.

But I do still feel a little frisson of excitement when they mention a name on a costume drama and I think, hmm, one of mine! LOL. It was interesting that one of the Gamage Norman/Welsh line is someone my sister has always had an intense interest in(Lord Dudley) - so it was a pleasure to tell her he is a rellie - LOL. The first time she had showed much interest to be truthful!

Thing is Sue, we are probably related aswell - LOL!

I think it is wonderful Heather

I was completely in a daze for a little while when I discovered I had a line that went back to William the Conqueror and to various European royals.

It wore off a bit when I had done some reading and realised that millions of people have the same ancestry but it is still great to know how the line goes.

I've since had huge fun exploring the backgrounds of many of the women who married into the family and that has led to such surprising ancestors. I've found El Cid, Lady Godiva, Alfred the Great, Charlemagne etc etc.

I think one of the most astonishing which shows how much royal women moved in medieval times is the ancestry of Philippa the Queen of Edward III. Her lineage goes back to eventually to Hungary then to the Princes of Kiev then to a woman called Gytha who was the daughter of King Harold (the loser at the Battle of Hastings). She had fled to Scandinavia when her father lost to the Conqueror and eventually married Vladimir of Kiev.

It all gets very complicated and tangled and I love it!!!

Sue
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Sue, I cant get over that my ancestor was at the Court of Elizabeth 1st. I mean, its mind blowing isnt it. Plus his line goes back to the domesday book and beyond.

On top of that I recently had a contact from someone who is doing a one name study on the Gamage family in my line and they have been on the task with professional help for 3 decades and sent me some amazing detail which appears to show that I had another line also at the Court of Elizabeth 1st - LOL, and also from the Norman invasion of 1066..

As you say, it was a small country and a small population and back then people would intermarry with others of the same standing, so no doubt most of us have aristos/royalty in our line.

Sorry Melanie, why do you say the marriage was in Kent? Because it says Diocese of Canterbury? That doesnt mean the event was in Kent, it just means that it was in an area owned by the Diocese. The Archbishop of Canterbury is/was the Primate of all England and various lands and properties were owned by Canterbury diocese all over the country.

Please anyone?

I having trouble with this Allen - Dove marriage because I know for sure Geo. Dove was born in Lincolnshire and it is strange that the marriage was in Kent, Kent is 180 miles away from Lincolnshire. Any ideas?

It's fun if you do find a link back to a well documented mediaeval family because, if you are lucky, it can link into most of the Norman families and Royalty all over Europe.

I know literally millions of people must be descended from the same ancestors but, when I was in the V&A Museum recently, I saw replicas of the tombs of several Kings and Queens and it sent a tingle down my spine. Just knowing that if they hadn't existed I wouldn't be here is amazing.

It has its funny moments sometimes like when Time Team were digging up the ruined castle of a Robert de Belleme. He was such a nasty person who tortured people and my husband said that he bet Robert was one of mine! I did a bit of hunting online and soon discovered that one of his descendants was one of my ancestors!

I've got lots of baddies and some actual saints as well so I suppose it evens out.

Sue
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Yes that would be a good idea.

My cousin and I have found out about the ancestral home in Shropshire - we have been told by the local historian that it is now owned by an MP but that he feels the chap would be happy to show us around with all the information we submitted to him. But, I dont know, cousin is keen but Im not sure how Id feel - LOL.

Exactly the same thing happened with my family.

From the 12th century and all throughout the middle ages they were wealthy landowners, owning a large part of Lancashire. I have traced my own particular branch to the early 1700s, but they were poor agricultural labourers by that time.

By the mid 1700s the land and money had all been lost to them due to high taxation of and penalties against Catholics.

The original manor, Samlesbury Hall, still stands and is run by a charitable organisation. Whenever I visit, I feel both strange and saddened that I'm walking around my ancestral home as a tourist.

When I told the tour guide that I was a member of the old family he told me that quite a few other visitors had told him the same. I suppose it could be a good idea to set up some kind of message board there as a way to make contacts.

Amanda

Im in the same situation as Sue, I couldnt believe it when I found the status of one line of my ancestors - but again it was a case of eldest son got the title and dosh and the younger ones got trades or professions and well I guess in all families there are kids who arent that bright or are unambitious, whatever, and in a say 4 or 5 generations you have guys who are doing skilled trades or ag labs whose ancestors were titled.]

However, that nun business also worries me. And there was a tendency as a sort of grovel for lesser gentry to name their children the same as the local Lords.

DOH, just seen the last posting :(

Well that ends lots of confusion. I can't thank you enough for your help, this was a big puzzle for me and it is now solved, thanks.

That rather ends the puzzle then. Looks like it was a totally different Apollonia.

I've noticed going through a lot of parish records that names tend to be popular in batches. I wouldn't be surprised if there were several girls baptised with the same name around the same time.

Doesn't look like you have that link via the rich family after all. That's a shame but perhaps you can now get further back with the Dove and Allen families.

Good luck
Sue
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Sorry about this, but Boyd's Marriage Index has George Dove marrying Appolonia Allen in 1712.

This is from the British Origins site. The only other information given is "Canterbury Diocese". An expert on Boyd's may be able to tell you where "Canterbury Diocese" entries were actually taken from.

I can't see a licence from the Vicar-General or the Faculty Office.

The branch of my family which started off as nobility slipped down the social scale but it happened over a number of generations. As younger sons of younger sons married they chose women who matched the social scale they found themselves in rather than the one they'd been born into.
If an older brother had inherited most of the land plus any title, that meant they had little to offer a bride and her family were likely to be from a family whose wealth matched the groom and not his father.
So my 8x g grandfather was the son of an Earl (Henry Clinton-Fiennes) but his brother became the next Earl and my ancestor was Sir Henry Fynes.
I am then descended from a younger son of Sir Henry by a second wife. This son had no title and wasn't a Sir.
By the time you get down to the next generations the younger sons are marrying the daughters of yeomen then later farmers and eventually publicans and even agricultural labourers.

Meanwhile the first borns go on being wealthy and titled.

On a larger scale this is how it is estimated that most English are descended from the early Norman and Plantagenet royals and nobility. It doesn't take many generations of slipping down the scale before the family have forgotten they might have ever had noble roots on a line or two.

Sue
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That is a huge amount of money for then!

If she was wealthy in her own right then perhaps she chose her own marriage,
However I do feel she'd be unlikely to marry someone really different from outside her own social group.

I'm a bit concerned about that stirnet mention of her being a nun. Could you contact the Stirnet site owners and ask where that particular piece of information was sourced?

Sue
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