Genealogy Chat

Hi

Looking for advice or helps, thanks in advance!

Iam trying to link a Rees Powell with his father Roger Powell.
-----

I have Rees Powell and his wife (Mary Ann) marriage certificate (19th May 1888), in that it lists a Roger Powell as father with occupation of shopkeeper.

What I have done so far...................

In the 1891 census, Rees is listed as living with his wife Mary Ann and son Morgan in the district of brecknock, est birth year 1862 in a town called llywel.

In the 1881 census there is only one Rees Powell listed born in llywel, district is again brecknock with birth year of 1863.

In the 1871 census he has disappeared, now I did a birth search for Rees Powell c1863 and found only 1 born in the correct district in 1863, however when I ordered his birth certificate it had the wrong father listed.

My theory is as follows:

Rees Powell was actually born Rees Davies, in the 1871 census Rees Davies was born in Llywel c1863 district brecknock, from 1881 Rees Davies with those details disappears and Rees Powell appears.

My only linkage is that in the 1871 census Rees Davies has a sister Margaret Davies who is 10yrs old, in the 1901 census Rees Powell is listed with a sister living with him called Margaret Davies but she is 33 (so seven years out).

Now the above sounds reasonable but in the 1901 census it lists a Hannah Davies living with Rees Powell as mother yet in the 1871 census Rees Davies mother is listed as Susan.

In any case I decided to order Rees Davies birth certificate and to my frustration no father at all was listed.

In the 1851 & 1861 census, I found a Roger Powell in Llywel, district Brecknock who was listed as a shopkeeper but I have been unable to link him to my Rees Powell.

To recap, I have been unable to locate a correct birth certificate for Rees Powell and Iam unable to prove a link with the Roger Powell listed in the 51 & 61 census.

Apologies for the long story, I dont believe I have left anything out and I wanted to make sure I listed as much as I could.

Any help or tips would be much appreciated.

Thanks!
Phil

So Rees Powell is already widowed in 1901, with son Morgan and sister Margaret Davies........now I may have misunderstood (just trying to get my head around this)...but you then put..

"Now the above sounds reasonable but in the 1901 census it lists a Hannah Davies living with Rees Powell as mother yet in the 1871 census Rees Davies mother is listed as Susan"

.I cannot see the mother Hannah Davies with Rees Powell in 1901....which 1901 census is mother Hannah Davies on.

Gail.



1901

Rees Powell
Age in 1901: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Head
Where born: Trecastle, Breconshire,

Civil Parish: Glyntawe and Trianglas
Ecclesiastical parish: Callwen
County/Island: Breconshire

Registration district: Brecknock
Sub-registration district: Dyfynnock

Margaret Davies 33 Single, Sister born Trecastle, Breconshire
Morgan Powell 12 Son born Glyndewe, Breconshire,
Rees Powell 36

Class: RG13; Piece: 5166; Folio: 33; Page: 1.

Okay got it, it is the 1891

Rees Powell
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann
Mother's Name: Hannah
Where born: Llywel, Breconshire, Wales

Civil Parish: Devynnock
Ecclesiastical parish: Devynock
Town: Glyntawe
County/Island: Breconshire
Registration district: Brecknock
Sub-registration district: Devynnock

Hannah Davies 66 Mother - Deaf and Dumb.....
Morgan Lewis 23 Brother in Law
Mary Ann Powell 30 Wife
Morgan Powell 2 Son
Rees Powell 29 Head

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 4569; Folio 33; Page 2; GSU roll: 6099679.

Gail.

1881

Rees Powell
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Servant
Where born: Llywel, Breconshire, Wales

Civil Parish: Llywel
County/Island: Breconshire
Country: Wales

Street address: Benwtngonfawr
Occupation: General (...)Serv (In Door)

Registration district: Brecknock
Sub-registration district: Devynnock

David Davies 30
Margaret Havart 62
Mary Morgans 52
Rees Powell 18

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 5457; Folio: 34; Page: 3; Line: ; GSU roll: 1342313.

Gail.

1871 the Rees Davies

Rees Davies
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Susan
Where born: Llywel, Breconshire, Wales

Civil Parish: Llywel
Town: Trecastle
County/Island: Breconshire
Country: Wales
Brecknock
Sub-registration district: Devynnock

Margaret Davies 10
Mary Ann Davies 5
Rees Davies 8
Susan Davies 42 Head, Unmarried, Deaf and Dumb since birth

Class: RG10; Piece: 5577; Folio: 6; Page: 5; GSU roll: 850871.


I think this is the same Susan on the 1861 census, and Margaret is 2 here.

Susan Davies
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Anne
Where born: Llywell, Breconshire, Wales

Civil Parish or Township: Llywell
County/Island: Breconshire
Country: Wales

Registration district: Brecknock
Sub-registration district: Devynnock

Anne Davies 74 Head
Margarret Davies 2 Granddaughter
Susan Davies 31 Daughter, Deaf,
Wm Price 6 Grandson

Class: RG9; Piece: 4209; Folio: 45; Page: 4; GSU roll: 543251.


and 1881

Susan Davies
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Gender: Female
Where born: Trecastle, Breconshire, Wales

Civil Parish: Llywel
County/Island: Breconshire
Country: Wales

Street address: Loggin Terrace Rose Cottage Trecastle
Laundress

Registration district: Brecknock
Sub-registration district: Devynnock

Margaret Davies 22 (This Margarets age coming into line on the 1891)
Mary A. Davies 13
Susan Davies 52 Deaf and Dumb

RG11; Piece: 5457; Folio: 15; Page: 2; Line: ; GSU roll: 1342313.

Gail.

Both 'Hannah' Davies and 'Susan' Davies are 'Deaf and Dumb' - that is a coincidence.

Gail.

I don't know how you prove the theory beyond doubt, but I do think that both 'mothers' being deaf and dumb is a big coincidence.

Could he have changed his name and invented a father for respectabilities sake. The fact that there is no father mentioned on the birth certificate for Rees Davies ties up with Susan not being married.

I cannot find any link to the supposed father - could you see if you could check the parish records for LLywel and see if that throws any light on things.

Gail.

You say:

My theory is as follows:

Rees Powell was actually born Rees Davies, in the 1871 census Rees Davies was born in Llywel c1863 district brecknock, from 1881 Rees Davies with those details disappears and Rees Powell appears.

My only linkage is that in the 1871 census Rees Davies has a sister Margaret Davies who is 10yrs old, in the 1901 census Rees Powell is listed with a sister living with him called Margaret Davies but she is 33 (so seven years out).


I say:

Join the club! I don't think it's very big, so allow me to welcome you. ;)

You can read mine here, just in case it offers any ideas you haven't thought of ... or consolation. I'll just inflict it on any passerby, anyway.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=976217
"Ernest Monck - Australia sojourn c 1885-1895"

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=954394
"JohnRogersCheshire/MaryEmmaHill 1860s-descendants"


My gr-grfather was -- sez I -- registered and baptised as Ernest Augustus Hill, and had a sister registered and baptised as Ada Lennox Monck Hill, whom we'd never heard of.

We knew him as Ernest Augustus Monck, and the sister we'd never heard of transformed herself into Ada Lennox Monck.

Two completely separate existences for each of them.

Ernest is Hill up to when his daughter is born in 1872, and then his first wife dies. He appears as Monk in 1881 and is Monck ever after, and the daughter dies in 1892 as Monck.

Ada is Hill up to when she is an actress at the Adelphi Theatre in 1871. She is Monck when she marries in 1875.

They were baptised and registered at birth as having father Francis Hoare Hill. They claimed when they married that they had father Francis Monck.

We even have the mother problem: my Hills' mother was Sarah Emma (Bond) Hill. The Monk's mother in 1881 is Emma Monk. (No one by that name ever existed in the place the census claims the Monks were from, which matches where the Hills were from.)

Do you suppose that something similar happened with yours -- a switch to a middle name?


I love your story! -- misery loves company. I'm going to come back to it tomorrow when I'm not so tired.

I'll just leave you with my Hill/Monck's other tale, in case you want to consider it for your people.

He (or his father, I wish I could remember) was really the son of a black sheep younger brother of Viscount Monck (whichever one applies).

Any Lord Powells in your vicinity??

I may be missing something, but it seems to me that "Susan" plus "Hannah" equals "Susananna" (or a variation thereof). I'd look for her baptism in Llywel between 1825 and 1830 and see what it says. I don't think it is/was unusual for people to be known by one name (often a nickname) during one part of their life and by another name when they're older (my mother was).

Given the absence of a father's name on the birth certificate, I agree that Rees Davies was most likely the illegitimate son of Susan (and grandson of Mary). As Gail said, the parish register could probably confirm this - if you're very lucky, there may be a "reputed father" recorded.

As for the name change from Davies to Powell, is it possible that Roger Powell (the shopkeeper you found in '51 and '61) was his 'natural father' and acknowledged his paternity? I'd check FreeBMD for his death and then see if you can find a will probated sometime thereafter. There might even have been a Legal Notice in a local newspaper.

Hope this helps -

Tim

Firstly, thankyou all who have replied for your insight and help, its been very helpful to get a fresh take on things.

Secondly, apologies for not putting in the census references to make them easier to find, will know for future!

Tim & Could Be, I think you have nailed it, I had missed that Susan was also listed as Deaf & Dumb, also on Rees Davies birth certificate Susan is actually listed as Susannah!!!

Will also check the parish records as you have suggested.

Thanks for your help all.