Genealogy Chat

The one and only way to confirm if there are twins is to order both certificates, check the names of the parents are the same AND the dates and place of birth.

If all the above matches then it is pretty certain that they are twins.

BUT............without viewing the certs you might find yourself assuming twins incorrectly, this example is from a genuine tree

Two chaps called James (cousins) married two girls called Mary Smith (aunt and niece).
Both couples had children just a few days apart, registered them on the same day but without the date pf birth from the certs you would never know if the two children were twins or not. The parents names are the same on both certs so it is just the date and place that prove the fact.

Despite whatever you are told identical district and page numbers do not mean twins. Nor does the time of birth on a cert, twin births might have the time ommited and single births may well show a time.

Glen

Could this be a lead,

Death,

Alice Rapley,

Age 6,

1888,

Juy/Sept.

Steyning,


2b---149......

For completion, here follows another email recieved from Kay:

Hi Rachel.
I hope this puts your mind at rest,,,,,,

I contacted the GRO,,as a queriy to these birth entries,,,,,

Their reply was,

No having checked the entires for the said people ,they confirm that there has not been an error in the indexes and although they cannot divulge any information regarding these these entries they can conform that duplicate Volume and Page numbers dictate a multi birth,,,,,,,,,

So they in a roundabout way said yes these are registered as twins but they havnt,,if you see what I mean,,,,,,,,,

Regards,
Kay,

Times on a cert for the births of twin are not gauranteed, and the page numbers could indeed be different. A page can only hold so many entries so it is quite possible that one twin is the last entry on one page and the other is on the following page.

The only certain way to prove whether they are twins is to apply for the certs, but a friendly local registrar might well be the answer. You could always apply to the local reg office and state the names of the parents, specify if the information doesn't match then the cert is not required.

If the office find the info doesn't match then they won't send the cert but they won't charge you anything for looking either. Reference checks via local reg office are all included in the £7 cost of the cert.

No cert=No fee

Glen

My gt grandfather b in 1840 was a twin and the time of birth is on his cert.

Possibly some registrars might not have bothered with time of birth though?

My grandfather had twin brothers in 1867they had time of birth on certs, and my great aunt had twins in1903 with time of birth too.Jean

Hi, I didnt say that was what it meant, I posted the email I received from Kay for other peoples information and discussion.
See my post above - 15/11/2007 21:45:25

Still looking for death of Alice...?

Sorry to contradict you Raych, but having the same GRO reference does not indicate a multiple birth. These are all the births with the same reference as the Rapley pair:

Births Mar 1883 (>99%)

BEER Ernest Frank Hoo 2a 557
BENNETT Olive Ann Hoo 2a 557
Hammond George Hoo 2a 557
Hassell Violet Hoo 2a 557
Kenknight George Henry Hoo 2a 557
RANSLEY Isaac Robert Hoo 2a 557
RAPLEY Alice Hoo 2a 557
RAPLEY William Hoo 2a 557
THARP John Caleb Hoo 2a 557
TUCKER Elizabeth Hoo 2a 557

Having the same page no on the GRO index does not mean twins. The page number is for the GRO index not the original local registry office page. I have two cousins born in the same quarter with the same vol No and page no (also the same name!).

Someone on this board a while ago had the opposite problem - what looked like twins on the census but only one birth registration. She phoned the local Registry office and confirmed that there was a twin. The second one's registration had been ommitted from the GRO index.

Had another look. The baptism record on Family search for Alice Rapley gives her parents' names as Frederick Rapley and Jane Coulter. The 1891 census return you mention where William appears shows his parents as being John and Ann. I think as mentioned earlier that it is likely they are related some way or another but not twins. By the way, William does not come up on Family search. Hope this helps.

Re: Re: New message from kay 15/11/2007 21:51:50
Request Allow

Hi Rachel,

Yes any two births that carry the same GRO numbers on the national indexes are twins,,,,,,,,,,,
2a is the GRO area ,,and 557 is the same page,,,,,

If you send for at least one of the certs you will see that a time is in place for the birth,,
all muti births have the time on them,,,,,,,,
I know I am not wrong on this one,,,,,
each birth entry had a different page number so 4 could have been born in HOO and each will be diffrent ,when two are the same --then its def twins,,,,,,

regds,
kay,

This is the entry that Jeanette mentioned earlier, the dob doesnt quite match, the birth index is 1883, but it doesnt mean this isnt her, i have plenty of census' with approx dob on, can anyone track her down either on the 1891 census or a death record?

Name: Alice Rapley
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Hundredghes, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Northfleet
Ecclesiastical parish: Northfleet St Botolph
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Strood
Sub-registration district: Northfleet
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 198
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Bates 36
Annie R Church 50
Thomas Church 51
Emily Hall 20
Jessie Ives 20
Alice Rapley 20

I recieved a pm on this topic, so thought it best to post here for other peoples future ref:

kay New message from kay 15/11/2007 16:41:18
Request Allow
New message to Rachel

From kay
Hi Rachel/

THese two people were certailny twins,,,,as they carry the same reg index gro number of ,,,,,2a 557..........Hoo,only twins or muti birth have the same GRO index,,,,hope this helps,,,,,

My reply:

Hi Kay, thank you for your message, I was under the impression that 2a referred to the volume, and 557 the page of the registry, therefore they would have been born close together time wise but not necessarily related, am I wrong in this?? Thanks.

Raych

I think you will find they were twins.

I am a twin, and I am listed directly after my sister.

I also have twins and likewise, they were listed on same page....because I registered them together!

I would go for it and order a certificate.

I am presuming you have checked all years upto the census for a death for Alice?

Good Luck
Dee

On 1901 census there is an Alice Rapley, aged 20, working as a housemaid for Thomas Church, a grocer and draper, and his wife Annie R Church at 45/46/47 High Street, Northfleet, Kent. Birth place is given as Hundred of Hoo.
There is also a marriage for Alice Rapley and Joseph Henry Warren o/n/d 1901 ref 1d 2134 at Woolwich, Greater London, Kent.
Doesn't answer your question as to whether she was a twin but highly likely to be her in 1901 as there aren't many Rapleys coming up on search. Hope this helps but as everybody has said, you can't beat getting birth certificates.

You could be a bit cheeky like I was.

I had probable twins born 1862.I knew both names.
I wrote to the local registration office for one of the birth certificates saying that I was trying to establish that Daniel was a twin.
When the cert arrived, enclosed was a slip of paper from the Register Office saying NB Daniel was a twin.

No time was mentioned.

Gwyn

I dont know that birth certs from 1883 would have the time on? Anyone any ideas?

I can find no record of her at all apart from her birth.

Have you looked for her in 1901.....or is there a person of the correct age?
She could be with a relative or elsewhere in 1891.

Gwyn

As she isnt on the 1891 census, I would presume she died young if she is his twin. Why might there not be a bmd entry for this?