Genealogy Chat

Its a difficult one I know!

He gives his age in 1901 as 45 and in 1891 35, therefore he should have been 31 when he married in 1887 (not 28 as stated on the cert),

he should have been 25 in 1881 and I can only find a census giving 23 - farmer's indoor servant,

he should have been 15 in 1871 but I can only find a 17 year old

and then he should have been 5 in 1861 but we have him as 8???

his wife Ellen is not much better

in 1901 she is 40
and in 1891 she is 28
I haven't found her prior to that, I do know her father was Richard Lloyd and she also was living in Aston Botterell at her marriage in 1887.

I think I have to order both Ann's marriage cert to William Howells in 1859 and see if she is widowed and what her maiden name is. This may help me find a previous marriage to a William Palmer prior to William being born. Or it will give Ann Palmer as being her maiden name, in which case William was born illegitimately and gave William Palmer instead of William Howells as his father on his marriage cert to save face.

It may be worth me ordering the two birth certs for William...Dec 1/4 1852 Cleobury Mortimer and Sept 1/4 1854 Wellington.

What worries me is that I don't have a definite link between the William on the 1891 census and William on the 1861 census.

Hi Dee

I was going on his age of 8 yrs in 1861 and therefore a birth year of circa 1851/2, to work out his age at marriage in 1887. I have found that the correct ages are usually the ones that you can find in their early childhood - his mother/step father would have entered his age on that census so he would have been unable to lie about it himself.

If his real birth year was 1856 that means his mother/step father would have mistaken a 5yr old for an 8yr old. Hmm...possible if he was tall, I guess LOL

Regards, Athena

Athena

I think he should be 31 at marriage (making him the 35 on the 1891 census)

Thanks again Athena

I have seen this also - It is a possibilty

however, I have also seen a marriage in 1854 Dec 1/4 W'ton to possibly Ann Farminer

and also

Sept /14 W'ton to possibly Ann Hunt

Going that my family came from w'ton, the census took me to shropshire (Bridgnorth - not far from W'ton and it does have a W'ton postcode). The older children were from Aston Botterell, Shropshire, but I suppose it is possible that William's family were from Stourbridge (not far from W'ton either) or Wolverhampton - even though he was living in Aston Botterell at time of his marriage.

What is interesting also, is that I have been searching buriel records for William and Ellen in Wolverhampton and we cannot find them.....I thought that maybe they were buried in their birthtowns but cannot get to the records offices yet to look for them. Its a real mistery. I have looked at all possiblilities for William's buriel in W'ton, and could only find one...sent off for the certificate and its not him....the informant is E Lovatt (daughter) and he was living in a different part of W'ton and wrong occupation!

Dee - he probably wanted to knock a few years off his age to make it nearer to his brides!

Unless my brain has really gone wacko I worked it out that in 1887 when they wed he would really have been about 35 yrs old.

It was a common thing for people to lie about their ages on marriage certs - I have lots in my tree who did the same thing, especially when there was a large age gap between the two parties.

My grt grandad chopped 20 years off his age when he got wed the 2nd time!

Athena

Yes, sorry - brain working too quickly, Dee. I guess you will have to buy the marriage cert and that will hopefully shed some light on that issue.

I did do a quick search for marriages of a William Palmer to an Ann circa 1850 (well, prior to William Jnr's birth) and there is one that might be worth checking out:

Name: William Palmer
Year of Registration: 1851
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Stourbridge
County: Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands, Worcestershire
Volume: 18
Page: 527

There is an ANN MOSELEY on the same page.

Athena

I know ages should not be trusted on the marriage certificates, and he could have lied about his age. But what had he got to gain if he said 28?

Thank you Athena,

yes I did see your post, but how do you know from the listing that it is her 2nd marriage...couldn't it be her maiden name? William may have been given her maiden name??

Also, I still have his birthyear as 1856 in both 1891 & 1901 and 1859 when he married?

Dee - did you see my post re the marriage entry?

I think this answers your initial queries as it proves that the family on the 1861 census is the right one and that your William was, therefore, born circa 1852/3.

As regards finding William Palmer's birth cert, I would start with the one for Cleobury Mortimer. There are, actually two - 1851 and 1852 - I'd start with the 1852 because there may have been a previous son that died in infancy.

Name: William Palmer
Year of Registration: 1852
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Cleobury Mortimer
County: Herefordshire, Shropshire, Worcestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 513


Regards

Athena

What I might add, is that Delbury is an abreviation for Diddlebury (so the Shropshire record offices tell me)

Sorry Reggie

It was passed to me by another GR member and I hadn't noticed it

Here is the marriage of William Howells to Ann Palmer - so yes, it was her second marriage, Dee:

Name: William Howells
Year of Registration: 1859
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Bridgnorth
County: Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 888 (

If it helps you trace the 1891 others in household were:

Annie Palmer 7
Violet Palmer 4
Beatrice Palmer 3
& Leonard Palmer

1891...........It really would have made life easier if you'd told us about the mistranscription............


Name: Beatrice Palmes
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Ellen
Gender: Female
Where born: Aston Botterell, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Neenton
Ecclesiastical parish: Neenton
Town: Neenton
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England


Registration district: Bridgnorth
Sub-registration district: Chetton
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Annie Palmes 7
Beatrice Palmes 3
Ellen Palmes 28
Leonard Palmes 2
Violet Palmes 4
William Palmes 35 b. Delbury. Shropshire

If they only married in 1887......where does Annie fit in?

Reg

Dee - I find it interesting to note that William Howells was also a Carter by trade - which makes it an even stronger connection that your William is the one found on the 1861 census.

So we need to find out how Wm Howells is related to your William - real father or step father.

Athena

Reggie

Just noticed that you have William's occupation as a Corporation Carter (I thought it said Corporation Banker?)

on 1891, it shows Annie Palmer and Violet Palmer (these were Ellen's children before marriage to William as I have found their two births as Lloyd)

Yes Reggie

Thats the one, however, I find that each census gives a different birthplace!

Athena

Thanks for your help.

Yes, this is the one have been working on. However, Ann is married to William Howells. Now either, Ann was widowed and had married mr howells afterwards, or Palmer may be her maiden name and William was named after her (seems I need to get a copy of her marriage to Mr Howells to see if it has palmer as a previous married name or her maiden name). It is the fact that William has stated his father as William Palmer on his marriage cert which has thrown me. If this is true, William Snr must have died prior to her 2nd marriage (presuming there wasn't a divorce). OR.... has William given his step-father's name but put him as Palmer to save face??

1901...........for clarity

Name: William Palmer
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Colgate, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Wolverhampton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England


Registration district: Wolverhampton
Sub-registration district: Wolverhampton Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 244
Household Members: Name Age
Arthur Palmer 4
Beatrice Palmer 13
Edward Palmer 6
Ellen Palmer 40
Frederick Palmer 10
William Palmer 45 Occ: Corporation Carter
William Palmer 11


The two elder children were born Aston Botterell, Shropshire
Reg

Dee - was Ellen calling herself Nellie or something similar as I still can't find them by searching on William Palmer with spouse name Ellen in the areas you've stated.

Athena