Genealogy Chat

OK all you kind detectives out there, I need an objective view on this: Between 1854 and 1870 7 children were born to (according to certificates) John Lea and Jane Lea (formerly Cartwright). On the 1861,71,81 Censuses John, Jane and family are present (except 71 and 81 Jane was a widow). John married in April 1854, his marriage certificate states his bride as ANN Cartwright. (There is no marriage for a John Lea and JANE Cartwright). ANN and JANE were sisters. At the time of the marriage ANN would have been 29 and JANE would have been 19. The marriage certificate states the brides age as: "Of full age" Was 'full age' 21? Did the church check birth records to make sure a girl was the age she said she was? Birth was pre 1837, so no Birth Certificate to produce. Could JANE have pretended to be ANN? All theories gratefully received Christel

Sometimes people had double weddings , why don't you check who Ann cartwright married perhaps the names got mixed up on completion of the certificates? Could Ann be known as jane?As far as I know no proof of age was requested whichis why there are often discrepancies on marriage certificates.KIM

Hi Kim I had thought about Ann being known as Jane, but surely for Certificates she would have to use her real name, and it is JANE on all certs, including her death certificate. Can't find a marriage for any other ANN Cartwright in 1854 apart from the one to John Lea. It's interesting they didn't check ages then. That rather blows that theory out of the window. Why do we do this genealogy thing?????? thanks Kim Christel

where abouts did they live????? or marry

Hi Siobhan They married in Prescot, St Helens, Lancs (The John/Ann marriage is on freeBMD but I do actually have the certificate. They stayed in St Helens all through the Censuses. Jane and Ann were born in Parr, St Helens, Lancs. Any ideas?? Christel

Hi Christel I have a marriage cert for my great Granmother where she gives her name as Elizabeth Walker. I can't for the life of me find her on the 1881 census, but there is a Sarah Walker living with all the right named people in the right area. You could change your name as you saw fit in those days without having to do any of the legal stuff. Having said that, why would you choose your sisters name? Did Ann die and Jane just slip into her shoes? The plot thickens!!! Jeanette

Just a thought, could Ann have died soon after the marriage? John and jane then living as man and wife without getting married?

Hi Jeanette Hi Bob Thought of the 'stepping into the sister's shoes' thing. Have checked 1837.com from 1854 to 1856 (second child's birth) for death of Ann Lea........nothing Keep trying PLEASE! Christel

Who are the witnesses? Do they give you any clues . perhaps the registrar wrote the wrong name down at the time because They were similar and he couldn't tell the two apart! You need a time machine!! On the census whose age is right Ann or Jane's? KIM

another thought struck me as there was one on the boards the other day, is there another census entry for a John and Ann cartwright separate to the ones you found. It could be the one John was a cousin who married Jane and the other one married Ann? Someone on here the other day had one familywith all the right birthplaces and names except the wife and he found another family somewhere else with the right wife, they were in the same town , and had the same children's names and everything. KIM

Hi Kim It is JANE'S age who is correct all the way through. The witnesses were: John and Ann Grundy Christel

Hi again Kim We 'crossed in the post' there!! There are no Census entries for John and Ann, only John and Jane.

Ah well, if Jane's age is right on the census and she was only 19 at the marriage do you think she gave her sister's name knowing she was full age , and married without her parent's consent , which I think was required if under 21 ??Did Ann marry at all , if she is still single then perhaps this is your answer? KIM

Is Ann the witness, Ann Grundy? Just a thought Anne

So where did Ann go ? Any evidence that she still existed? Maybe she just got in the way? Is she buried under the House? Is the house still there?

I would think John and Ann grundy the witnesses were her sister and husband and she just used her sister's name to get round the being under 21, after all who cared, but us now!!! KIM

Hi Bill Good one!!!!!! Kim and Anne Hadn't thought of that, will look for the Grundy marriage! Many thanks Christel

Kim Cannot find a John Grundy/Ann Cartwright marriage between 1851 and 1854. 1851 Census Ann and Jane still at home together. Ann aged 26, Jane aged 16. Can you think of anything else? Now very sleepy Christel

Me again Christel! Good one this. Do you have any of the birth certs for their offspring? Would that give a clue? Jeanette

I have had a marriage certificate for 2 years. Arthur Wells. Tonight I have found this person was in fact Arthur Hinton, and the certificate I wanted in the first place. Everything fits for Hinton, husband's father and occupation, wife and her parents, its just the surname. I think I will have to check the church copy and see if it has been copied down wrong. I have heard and seen ages wrong from the Church copy but this is a first for a surname. What a waste of 2 years (well off and on) Just though I would share my info. Irene