Genealogy Chat

Hi All. just started this job and am stuck can't find my paternal grandfathers birth or my maternal gt grandfather as he was born in Kerry paternal grandfather charles miles born 1865-6 lived in camberwell 1901 census Maternal gt grandfather philip donoghue born 1851 lived camberwell 1901 census

Barry As far as I know there are no Irish records on the Internet. Have you looked at Tracing Irish Roots on the homepage of this website - you have to scroll down to find it under "Genealogy Resources". Good luck. nell

As a matter of interest in researching roots in Ireland. To research Co. Kerry at the National Library in Dublin you will need to write to the Bishop of Kerry for permission to research, otherwise the National Library can and will refuse you permission to look at the records. There are a few counties like this in Ireland, Kerry is one but once you write to them there is no problem with receiving a written permission. The only county that I know of where you will have real problems where the bishop refuses permission is County Tipperary. Records pre 1864 will be researched at the National Library in Dublin. There are scatterings of census, griffiths, tithe aplotment records on line but it is a question of using your preferred search engine to find them. Web site for National Library Ireland is: http://www.nli.ie/new_what_res.htm Janet

Amanda I tried three times to write COUNTY TIPPERARY . Why would it not come out on board! It is in my main message! Gremlins!! Co Tipperary is where my lot come from so I know the difficulties! But there are ways and means! Janet

On the contrary Irish records are coming on line day by day. More and more counties are setting up their own Family history societies and they are a mine of information. Use your search engine and look for, sy, Tipperary Family History Society and see what come up. There are so many site now that it is mind boggling. Also have you ever just entered your own name in a search engine and seen what comes up. Type say, J.Bloggs Family History" and see how many other people of your name are out there searching. You may be pleasantly surprised! John

A Big thank you to all you lovely people I couldn't do it without you Barry :-))

I think that when you are getting back to 1798 in Tipperary which is what I have already done, then you are touching the limits of Irish Family History altogether, and I have several web sites for Tipperary but none take me back beyond 1798 and none have any of my relatives on there. Having been researching Irish Family History for over 20 years, the best way forward in Irish Family History is to first of all really understand your Irish History, understand the culture and understand their lack of written records because the tradition in Ireland is for oral handing down of records, then you can begin to research your Irish Roots through the Irish Newspapers, which are available through the Colindale Newspaper Library in London, the Full Griffiths which you can obtain through the National Library in Dublin with smatterings of this online, Tithe Applotment Records, and by visiting the Townlands and Baronies of the places your ancestors came from, using guest houses which advertise help for your family history. As I said earlier there are ways around the brick walls in Irish Family History and my tree is as far back as I can take it on all sides. For those with Kerry and Cork ancestors the O'Kief, Cosh Mange records are extremely good. I have not seen any of these online but if anyone has, then I would be pleased to know about them. I would also recommend joining the Cork Genealogical Society for Cork ancestors to which I belong and for those with Tipperary Ancestors I recommend joining the Tipperary Historical Society to which I also belong. I have not heard of a Tipperary Family History Society and when I was in Tipperary in the summer they did not have one then. Even the Tipperary Historical Society has has been getting more difficult of late to get information from them. Ireland does not have a record for having family history societies. If only! My husband belonged to the Wexford FHS but that has now just disappeared. You must divorce the state records of 1864+ from the parish records of those prior to 1864 and it is the records prior to 1864 which are more difficult to obtain outside Ireland. The online records at present are a mere fraction of the records. Even the IGI is very thin on the ground here and certainly none of mine are on the IGI. There are hundreds of Irish web sites which you can use your favourite search engine to find, but few actual records. Many records were destroyed in 1922, although many of those destroyed were protestant records. The Tipperary Bishops make sure that their records remain in Tipperary. I have seen in someones house in Tipperary a book of records going back to the 1600's for the Tipperary area and he's not putting those online! Janet

Well Done Janet, You have stated very clearly and precisely many ways people who wish to seriously research the Irish Ancestors can do it. It would be of great value to have your piece as a guide for searching Irish lines especially for Tipperary and Cork areas. I find Dublin City with its Tenements and influx of people from all areas of the Country particularly difficult, I don't know if you have had any experience of searching the Dublin records but they are made much more difficult by having such large areas on the indexes and no guidelines for them. Still where there is a will, and all that. Well done once again. Pat x

Very good advice there. Civil registration commenced in Ireland in 1864. Parish records are more difficult for Protestants / Church of Ireland families, as I know to my frustration! Joining a family history society is very good advice. Try to write something that you know about your Irish family for publication in its magazine - you never know who might read it who could help you. Happy hunting. Joy (great-grandmother - Susan McCusker b about 1856 Dublin according to the 1901 census, 1881 and 1891: "Ireland"!)

PS Try the GENUKI website for Ireland and the relevant rootsweb message boards / mailing lists for the counties and surnames. Joy

Pat I have had no experience of Dublin because I have no ancestors from there though many went to live there of latter years. Mine are all from the country areas of Tipperary and then they all move to Cork City. Well having been back to the 1840's and 1850's of Tipp and all the unrest that was going on at that time in Tipp and Limerick and then the unrest of Cork City I do understand where the Irish history is coming from. My husbands people are from Wexford and as far as Irish people are concerned then just to mention the date 1798 is usually enough!! I am stuck at 1798 in Thurles but have learnt so much about the times from the local newspapers and I just wish that people would try to understand the Irish culture! There are lists of names all over the Tipp papers and I keep coming across the same names at different times for different things, some from my family. I was able to search the Thurles records for my ancestors as I did it through the help of a local B&B and was able to gain access from the PP Thanks for your support Janet

Julie You must try to get your ancestors into a county at least, and in reality unless you have a townland you have a real battle on your hands, unless you have a really uncommon name you are looking for. Try all the English census and see if you can get hold of original census. I only discovered one the other day on the 1871 Census that gave me the actual townland, spelt wrongly of course but I recognised the name. No other census gave me that info. All I had previously was Fermoy County Cork and in 10 years I have been unable to find her. Now with the townland I have a better chance. In 1921 the Irish Free State was set up and Ireland was still within the Commonwealth, but the six North Eastern Counties of Ireland were excluded. In 1949 the Republic of Ireland came into being and left the Commonwealth. It came to be known casually as North and Southern Ireland. In 1922 there was a disastrous civil war in which many of the records which had been sent to Dublin for ironic safekeeping were burnt during the fighting. However many Catholic records and many country records were not sent to Dublin hence the reason that many areas still have many records going back. It really is a question of finding ot where your ancestors came from and going on holiday to Ireland, a very beautifulplace to go. Janet

Julie, depending on the date, then it could have been Ireland and not Northern Ireland ie before the "split". There are certain surnames generally in certain areas of Ireland. I do appreciate the difficulty. We always used to think my great-grandmother came from Galway! My great-grandparents' first child was born in a certain year in England, and I had great-Granny's death certificate giving her age, so I wrote to a professional researcher in Ireland - you can find them by google searching - and asked if she could search for a marriage. Was surprised to find that they married in a Presbyterian Church in Turlough, County Mayo. You could try joining the Irish Family History Society, and ask questions there. Joy

I came across an interesting little bit of information recently whilst doing a local library look up for someone in America. I found that the parish records for some of our local Catholic Churches had small attachments to the marriage certificates. On investigation I found that if a young woman came to England from Ireland and wanted to marry here she had to get permission from the parish priest back home, particularly if she was under 21. This showed the name of the church and the originating parish of the person, along with the county. A priceless snippet of information when all other records merely showed the person as Originating "Ireland". I also agree with Janet that it is important to understand the culture of Ireland and its lovely people. We are frequent visitors to Ireland (at least three times a year) and through learning to dance a few sets, and becoming more involved with the local people you can certainly get lots of help and make many real friends. John

Rowson I am very familiar with these Heritage Centres and all I can say is that they like to accept your money, about £100 to answer a very basic question and that you need to supply them with as much info as you have on your family before they can help you. About 10 years ago a friend of mine in Ireland collected some info on my relatives on the back of an enquiry she made about her own family. It took nearly a year then to obtain the info. In 2002 a cousin in Tipperary put in for some info on the family, paid her fee of £200 for a report and in 2004 is still waiting for the results. They still have her £200. In the meantime I have got what we want by going on holidays at least once a year to obtain the info from the church registers. Unfortunately you cannot use the Heritage Centres like you can use our Record Offices here. You have to pay for the work to be done for you. When I know that these Heritage Centres were set up for free by the EEC to help Ireland put its records in order and the work was done voluntarily by students I get rather annoyed that the general public are not allowed access. It also looks as if some of these Heritage Centres are going bust, and there are question marks over both of the Tipperary Heritage Centres, which have been renamed at least once. Janet

PS I have had a lot of help from the Heritage Centres in Galway. Joy

The problem with joining all these Societies is that I have seven Irish ancesters from seven counties, and an eighth, unassigned lady who is probably from yet another county. Even if I went to Ireland, what am I supposed to do; stand in Tipperary and yell "ANYONE SEEN MY LOT?". There are three things that could be done, freely by volunteers, with Irish records: Put the BMD index online Put the 1901 and 1911 censuses online Name index the records instead of address indexing them I appreciate the difficulties arising from the partition in 1922 but it should not be an insurmountable problem. Nor should the Church be so precious about it all. I'm sure Ancestry would jump through hoops of fire to be allowed to use the census data. Until then, if you see a girl stalking through the Irish countryside screaming out names, give me a wave.

Twinkle Many people will hear what you are saying. As I said earlier much work has already been done by volunteers but Ireland has chosen to put their info into the Heritage Centres for which you have to pay, as you cannot research there yourself. Many people are working at getting some records on line but it is piecemeal. Ireland will work at the records in its own way, certainly not the English way!! English people MUST understand the Irish History. One of the many reasons why the Church is so "precious" about their records is because of the history, and to spell it out that means the Young Ireland Movement, Fenianism and the other organisations which still resonate in present times. I would urgently suggest you read up on the history. Many people fled from Ireland and emigrated all over the world during the Famine times, and like many people who went hungry and were evicted from their homes to sleep in ditches, many joined up to illicit organisations, and to this day, because of so much bitterness which divided families, the Church still protects. The areas that had the most rebellions and the most problems were Wexford 1798 and Cork, Kerry, Limerick and Tipperary during the 1840's onwards. Other counties may have suffered more with regard to the famine and evictions, but the uprisings were more in the counties named. The Irish Oral tradition of handing down records was very strong. It is weaker now and more challenging written material is being published all the time. But when in Ireland do as the Irish do! I haven't even mentioned the Cromwellian Period but all that history is also important! Please read up! Janet

I only started my family tree this year and my mum is Irish so i've concentrated mainly on my dads side. When we were over in Ireland last May we decided to visit the village where my mum's mum was originally from and find her families graves. We looked all round the cemetary but could find no graves of that name, it wasn't a very big cemetary so we couldn't have missed them. Then on the way out a man walked past with his dog, mum (she'll talk to anyone!) says 'hello, have you lived her long'. 'All my life' said the man who was about 70. She explained we were looking for the graves, 'Hang on' said the man 'i have the book in my house'. Goes into the house opposite and comes out with an old looking book, opens it up and there we all are in the middle of the cemetary looking through an 'ancient' book, find the deaths of both my great grandparents recorded. It had the date, name, age, plot number, cost of plot, even who dug the grave. He showed us where my great grandparents were buried but they didn't have a headstone so thats why we couldn't find it. The man said he knew the family very well and that they had moved to the village from a different village in a neighbouring county after being given their house by the land commission in the early 1900s. If he hadn't told us that we wouldn't have had a clue that they had lived somewhere else or where. So i think whats been said about oral tradition in Ireland is very important, the best way to trace your Irish history is to visit the places. Also as i mentioned my family moved counties after receiving a new house and farm from the land commission. I think this was fairly common in the west of ireland in the early 1900s, poor farmers would trade in their farms with poor quality land in exchange for better farms. A good deal for them but makes it harder for us to trace Paula

I agree that it is very important to read about Irish history, and to visit parts of Ireland if possible. If you go to Bantry House you can learn a lot there. It is fascinating and makes one think, when seeing war memorials, in County Cork for instance, realising that they are of fighting between the Irish and the British! In certain parts of County Cork, there is still division between "us" and the Irish. The partition is still recent. Interestingly though, not many people seem to visit the Michael Collins heritage centre. Joy