Genealogy Chat

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THOMAS COLLINS was a Shoemaker and Chelsea Pensioner born 1806 Ireland and living in Glasgow on 1861 census. There are quite a few possibles listed at the National Archives (WO 97) and last time I went to Kew I looked at a few of them but there was no next of kin listed and no other identifying information. In later census and his death cert Thomas is listed as a Marine Engineer (a clue perhaps?). I then looked at the Glasgow pension books (WO 22) and the only Thomas Collins mentioned as far as I could see was admitted to Out Pension in 1839 and then transferred from Monaghan to Paisley in 1847. As far as I can make out, Paisley is near Glasgow so it's possible this is my guy. It says he was in the 32c Foot Regiment but of course there is no Thomas Collins listed in WO 97 for that regiment. There is only one Thomas Collins born Monaghan who was discharged aged 37. He was in the 90th regiment and the covering dates 1808-1818 are too early. Can anyone with experience of WO records advise me where else I can search to figure out which Thomas Collins (if any) is mine next time I can get to Kew? All suggestions and ideas gratefully received. Lyla

Hi Lyla, As you have info. that he is a Chelsea Pensioner, Perhaps it might be worth your while to contact The Royal Hospital to find out precisely what that would mean ,at that time. Did he in fact become a resident there or was there another category? Worth a try? Jane

Hi Jane Thank you for your reply. I think that the hospital would only have records for the In-Patients but I will try to contact them anyway. As you say they might be able to give me some useful information about Out-Patients. I do hope there is someone on these boards with experience of WO records or Chelsea Pensioners who can give me some advice. Lyla

Lyla It seems you have too much conflicting info. Before you start further research you need to be sure which facts are correct. Was he a shoemaker, a marine engineer, a soldier, a Chelsea pensioner (when last seen in Glasgow)? Whilst nothing is impossible, my 'gut feeling' is that he was unlikely to have been all of these. Start with what you know for sure about him, and then try looking for further evidence of that first, before chasing possible wrong avenues. Ian

If you have done all your homework going BACKWARDS from YOURSELF, collecting all the certificates on the way, to include birth death and marriage I cannot see why you have a problem. I found my Chelsea Pensioner at Kew very easily as I had all the certs necessary to take me straight to him. If you have not done the preparatory homework with some thoroughness, then of course you will have a problem of deciding which one is which and will probably be climbing several trees at once, as your 'conflicting' evidence is showing. Janet

Janet, Lyla is one of the most experienced and thorough people on here! She has helped me and others enormously through her knowledge. Lyla, from what I can remember about Chelsea Pensioners from a query some time back, the out pensioners were the married ones. Only single men were in the actual hospital. It didnt matter what age they were, I found a 15 year old Pensioner injured in battle. Good luck, if anyone can find him ..............

Hi Ian, I know what you are saying but this really is all the information I have (all Glasgow). 1861 census - shoemaker & Chelsea Pensioner 1864 son's marriage - shoemaker 1868-72 other son's uni applications - shoemaker 1871 census - shoemaker 1874 wife's death - mechanical engineer 1879 death - master marine engineer The engineer is definitely the same man as the shoemaker. There is only the one reference to Chelsea Pensioner but it seems to be my only hope of finding out where in Ireland they came from. Thanks for your comments. Lyla

Thanks Heather for your kind words although I am a complete beginner with WO records - hence the plea for help. Lyla

I guess Lyla, if he were injured in the services he may have become a shoemaker due to some disability, but on the death certs reverted to his main career of which he was most proud. I assume he entered mechanical engineer on the wifes cert, so one of the sons? have put master marine engineer on his cert. We know how things can get a bit upgraded on certificates, dont we! If the boys were joining uni (blimey that was a bit posh then!) when he was in his late 50's? Its possible he married late - another bit I gleaned looking for my GGFx2 was that soldiers had to be 30 to marry in most cases. Not sure how this helps, but may be a marriage during his army days?

Lyla, The conflict is more in the Chelsea Pensioner versus Marine Engineer. I thought Chelsea Pensioners were ex-army, whereas a Marine Engineer sounds more like a sailor? Are you sure there are not two different men with the same names/similar ages? If he served in the army then his army service records will be held at Kew. That I guess is where you will find out more of his background. Ian

Heather Thank you so much for looking with a fresh pair of eyes. I think you are probably right. Perhaps he was an engineer in the army ? Thomas married his second wife in Glasgow in 1854 but they had no further children. I can’t find a death for the first wife in Scotland so I have to assume for now that she died in Ireland. The boy who studied at uni was an older student training to be a minister. Ian Thanks for that. To be honest I didn’t know that Chelsea pensioners were only army. Since there is only the one reference to Chelsea Pensioner I guess there is always a chance there was a mistake or he was lying on that census. His other son and his son’s son were boilermakers working on ships so perhaps I am barking up the wrong tree completely! Lyla PS I still don’t understand how without a regiment it is possible to find the war records of a man with a very common surname, born in Ireland and only an approximate date of birth.

Whilst it is correct to say that you had to be 30 to get married within the army at this time of the 1800's, many many young men joined the army at very young ages, some as young as 14, so they may only have been 26 on marriage, so this area does need careful consideration. It is also unlikely that someone joining the army would end up as a Marine Engineer as the two are totally different, one army and one navy, but marriage and birth certs and maybe death certs, will give you all these facts. Without the first marriage record, which will give you his regiment it will be like looking for a needle in the proverbial haystack. A shoemaker back in the 1800's operated under the most terrible conditions and many did not survive the conditions into middle age, never mind old age. Lyla You have not said where he married or when with regard to his first marriage, which is most likely to be where you will find the information you require? How many children did he have whilst in the army and married to his first wife and where and when were they born? If you think he married in Ireland then a search through the Regimental indexes on both 1837 Online or the Regimental Indexes in London at the FRC will provide you with that information. If he is not in those registers, then the likelihood of him marrying, or having children whilst in the army is doubtful. I have found all my army births and marriages this way, including those in Ireland. When he left the army, the rest of his children are registered in the normal way through the 1837 registers. Heather, So you do not think that I have considerable experience!! Janet

Thanks Janet, Unfortunately I only have the marriage banns for his second marriage in Glasgow 1854 which costed £10 and told me nothing. According to the 1861 census the three children were all born in Ireland. Without knowing where in Ireland it is impossible to find out more details. I have been unable to find them in the 1851 census for Glasgow nor a death of the first wife. I had thought the Chelsea Pensioner angle might help me find out where they came from but it seems to be a catch 22 situation. So, the brick wall remains standing :C

Ian, I guess we need PeterWalker on this one. But I think it would be possible to be in the army and be a marine engineer, especially at that time when things werent quite so defined. I know that nowdays you can join the army but actually work on ships - eg. landing craft etc. But I still wonder if one of the sons had vague memories of dad being an engineer and decided to upgrade it a bit? A MASTER engineer would imply he employed or trained others? Either way Lyla if he was a mechanic before joining up, then he would have served an apprenticeship? And if the marine bit is right, then you would likely be looking at the big Irish Port areas?

Lyla I have considerable experience researching in Ireland. It is not impossible, but very difficult and I agree you MUST find out where in Ireland these children are being born. However, there are some things you can look at first and going to Kew to research without further information is not one that I would suggest to you at this tme and this is with much personal experience of research in Kew. I challenged you earlier as felt that that may be one way to find out more for yourself before your next visit to Kew You seem to be sure these children are born in Ireland. Next question is: Have you looked at the Regimental Indexes? My own ancestor married in Ireland and had one of his children born there and until I found them in the Regimental Indexes I was totally lost as to how to access his papers at Kew. Once I had found them then everything slipped into place. But even then he changed regiments so it still may not be all plain sailing. The banns for which you appeared to have paid a lot of money are rather useless for the sort of info you require as you have now found out. Banns are useful to have in their own right, but not as substitutes for the actual certificate which gives you fathers' names, occupations etc You must have the actual Marriage Cert as this will give you a regiment provided he either married within the army or was still in the army when he married the second time. The cost for Marriage cert is £7. A death cert may also help, as one other army ancestor I was researching had his regiment recorded on the Death Cert after I had spent much time in Kew searching for him without this knowledge. You say he was born in Ireland, do you know where or when? If you do not know where or when how do you know he was born in Ireland? Is this just census info you are looking at? Have you researched all the census yourself until his death or relying on others to give you the info? The only info I had for one Irish ancestor on all census was Fermoy, Ireland which without the Townland was not very helpful when I came to trace in Dublin, but on the 1901 Census I did have the actual Townland which has made the possibility of tracing now much easier, so maybe with you, the County/Barony/Townland may be on one census but not on others? If you have some idea of area in Ireland try looking at the Griffiths or Tithe Aplotments or both to pinpoint a Townland. It takes time but can be done. I know I have done it Hope this is of some help. Janet

Heather, Not to wander too far from Lyla's original request, but I think you will find the various branches of the military were more defined in the 1800's than they are today. Remember, there were no petrol engines at this time, and only steam power in its infancy. The army used man and horsepower, and the Royal Engineers were involved in building bridges and fortifications. Small boats if used by the army would have been rowing boats, and sea going military vessels were the province of the Royal Navy. Don't think of the Royal Engineers of that period as men tinkering with motors! If he was a master engineer then that would have been his trade and would have shown up on earlier census returns, and not a shoemaker. Also in his mid 60's he would not lilkely have suddenly qualified as an engineer. If he was a Chelsea Pensioner then it implies that he had retired from the army and was receiving a pension. I can only speculate, but if all these census and certificate entries are indeed for the same man, then I might guess that someone has been 'adjusting' the truth of his status. Ian

Heather, Ian and Janet Thank you so much for taking an interest in this, your comments are really helpful. I did look at the regimental indexes and could not find the marriage to his first wife or a likely baptism for any of the 3 children. Before I found the 1861 census I had assumed the children were born in Glasgow as this is what they stated on all their censuses however their births are not registered in Scotland. I have spent a fortune on Scotlandspeople looking for them and years ago my mum paid a researcher to do the same. Before about 1855 there are no full marriage certificates in Scotland so that's no help and the reason why I bought the banns in desperation. Finding the family in 1861 put a new lease of life in my research as I now had a possible reason why I could not find anything in Scotland- perhaps they were born in Ireland. I also thought the fact that he was a Chelsea pensioner would help - clearly not. I cannot explain the changes in profession but I’m certain it’s the same man. On son Henry's marriage he is a shoemaker and the mother is Sarah Hughes. On Thomases death cert he is a marine engineer and first wife is Sarah Hughes, second wife Rebecca Boyd. In 1861 he is married to a Rebecca and the two sons I have been able to trace are the right age. I have the banns for his marriage to Rebecca Boyd in 1854. I really have no idea how to find out where in Ireland they came from and as you say the census could also be wrong. Lyla

Well I defer to your greater military and Irish knowledge! I had to get someone to look up my Grandfather at Kew, so Im not a lot of help Lyla!

Lyla Yes the certs for Scotland are later than English ones. Remember that Parish Records will mainly be Baptisms, not Births and that people can be baptised years after their birth, but Catholics were most likely to be baptised straight away so assuming his baptism is correct at 1806, it is improbable that he entered the army before 1818 age 12, although at this time boys were hard at work as labourers and other jobs age 10, but he would need to look a teenager at least, so even if he went in age 10 that would still be 1816 and the Battle of Waterloo was 1815 so would have missed that battle. However if his age is wrong and he was baptised earlier then maybe a look at the casualty lists for the Battle of Waterloo may be worth a look. These are online with a google search. There were no other major battles that I can think of until 1854 and the Crimea War, but if he was a member of the British Army in Ireland he may have been involved with the skirmishes that went on around 1848 in Tipperary and Cork. Many soldiers were injured at these times. Do you knbow if he was a Catholic or Protestant? Catholic Irish Records are not really around before 1794 whereas Protestant Records do go from the 1600's. However the good news is that most Catholic records survive in the various parishes, but the bad news is that many Protestant records did not suvive the 1922 problems. Have you thought that the Thomas Collins of 1808-1818 may be a relative of your Thomas Collins? However you are entering the realms of speculation, but maybe you can prove the theory right or wrong and either way could be positive. I have started with speculations which have turned out to be incorrect but that can be positive. To be entitled to be a Chelsea Pensioner he would have to have served so many years service and be injured somewhere. Somewhere I have seen a list of Chelsea Pensioners for this period, one of the Family History Mags a couple of years ago. I will check through my past copies to see if I can find it. Shoemakers were apprenticed and there is often an indenture for these, so maybe you can check this out. Northampton Museum has the most complete list of shoemakers indentures for not only Northamptonshire but also for other areas though this may not include Scotland. Try ringing the Mitchell Library in Glasgow to see where you might find Shoemakers Indentures in that area. Again, if you do not want to spend too much money then wait until you can do the work yourself in Scotland. Scotlands People can be expensive, but can give you leads which can be followed up at a later date during a holiday in Scotland. I have done a lot of research in Scotland this way, visiting the nearest big libraries for the parish records for my Scottish Ancestors and by doing the work myself over 20+ years have minimised the expense. Good Luck Janet