Genealogy Chat

Cat, It is strange that neither Harriet or Hannah is with John or Martha in 1871. I suppose Hannah could of been a servant in 1871 if she really was born about 1857. But surely Harriet would be too young to of been doing anything. So where on earth is she. Possibly with a relative or the likes. But certainly doesn't seem to be anywhere as a Kirkham unless she has been transcribed as something obscure. Sorry I can't be much more help. :o(

Hi Siobhan Yep, I'm pretty sure that is Hannah. The 1881 is only a few streets away from where Harriet was working, which doesn't necessarily mean anything, but could be relevant. I've ordered the death certs today for John and Martha Kirkham in the vain hope that maybe Harriet might have registered one of the deaths, although its pretty unlikely! I don't suppose there's much chance of John having left a will either, given that he died in the workhouse Lou

Could this be Hannah in 1871 as a servant to the Sabin family. Hannah Kirkham abt 1856 Manchester Gorton Lancashire Frederick Sabin abt 1842 Manchester Head Gorton Lancashire Frederick Michal Sabin abt 1869 Birmingham Son Gorton Lancashire Howard Earle Sabin abt 1870 Birmingham Son Gorton Lancashire Mary Ann Sabin abt 1847 Birmingham Wife Gorton Lancashire

Perhaps they weren't very good in numeracy which is why the ages are so different in each census. As you mention Harriet was a servant in 1881 in Moss Side. I presume this is Hannah: Hannah Kirkham abt 1856 Manchester Servant 41 Derby St, Moss Side, Lancashire, England

To Everyone who has contributed since I went to bed last night! Thanks for all your suggestions and information! Hannah did remarry in 1898 but father is just stated as John Kirkham, occupation Deceased! Her first husband died in 1893 but is simply registered as John Turner. I know it's the right person as the informant was another of the brothers George Henry Turner and the address matches that of their 1891 marriage certificate. I have the 1864 Manchester birth certificate for Harriet and its not her. Neither that one or the 2 for Hannah have a father called John. Harriet is very inconsistent with her age on the census - she is 17 in 1881, 22 in 1891, 27 in 1901 and 32 when she dies in 1906! So is Hannah. She only ages 2 years between her 1891 and 1898 weddings, although the 61-91 census do give her age as consistent with an 1856/1857 birth. The witnesses to the marriages don't really hold many clues at the moment. John Alfred was witness to Harriet and Joseph's marriage along with a Mary Butler. Joseph was the witness at Hannah and John's marriage along with a Phebe Seaman. The names of both women don't mean anything right now but may turn out to be relevant in the future. Who knows! The 1881 Harriet is definitely her. My ggrandfather Ernest was born in 1883, 2 years before Harriet and Joseph married, and his place of birth is given as the Moss Side address Harriet is working at in 1881.

Perhaps births for Hannah KIRKHAM, Hannah 1860 March Births Manchester (1837-1924) Lancashire Kirkham, Hannah 1861 March Births Manchester (1837-1924) Lancashire and maybe the birth of Harriet KIRKHAM, Harriet 1864 June Births Manchester (1837-1924) Lancashire

By the ages of Harriet in 1891 and 1901 even though they seem to be quite incorrect and the age of Hannah in 1901 I am wondering if maybe the baptism/births you found to Martha and John are not your Harriet and Hannah. regards, Siobhan

Lou, Presuming that the birth in macclesfield in 1863 is correct---->is macclesfield under cheshire for parish records? If so,a little trip to the Chester CRO might be in order,to scrutinize the church records. If youre nice to me....I could put them on my list next time i go. :-)

Oh, yes. Sorry. I'll go back into my corner now :)

Tracy Doubt there was two, as the second marriage I found is in relation to Hannah's first marriage name TURNER and not her maiden name Kirkham. Besides it is very unlikely Harriet husband would have Hannah as a sister in law if it was Harriets cousin.

Unless there was 2 Hannahs? A cousin, perhaps?

Or perhaps Hannah's first husband didn't die. Perhaps she didn't get on with him or she may of been a bigamist ;oO Deaths Dec 1910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TURNER John A 53 Chorlton 8c 453

Bear in mind that 'father's occupation' on the marriage certificate was sometimes copied from the bride or groom's birth certificate, rather than what his occupation actually was at the time of the daughter or son's wedding. I'm certain of this because there are a couple of cases in my family where the father had changed his occupation many years before but the old one appeared on the son or daughter's marriage cert. Kate.

it seems harriets sister Hannah did remarry. But he didn't last very long seeing as she is widowed again in 1901. Perhaps you should order this marriage cert to see what Harriet and Hannah's father occupation was in 1898. Marriages Dec 1898 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GOODIER Thomas Whyatt Chorlton 8c 1326 Rowland Charles Henry Chorlton 8c 1326 Turner Hannah Chorlton 8c 1326 WOODWARD Jane Chorlton 8c 1326 Possibly Charles Henry's Death: Deaths Jun 1899 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rowland Charles Henry 47 Chorlton 8c 419

did Harriets sister Hannah remarry: Hannah Rowland abt 1862 Manchester, Lancashire, England Sister-in-law South Manchester Lancashire Harriet Turner abt 1874 Manchester, Lancashire, England Wife South Manchester Lancashire John A Turner abt 1892 Manchester, Lancashire, England Son South Manchester Lancashire Joseph S Turner abt 1864 Manchester, Lancashire, England Head South Manchester Lancashire Oswald Turner abt 1894 Manchester, Lancashire, England Son South Manchester Lancashire

I presume this in John and Martha in 1871, but where is Harriet???? hmmmm Considering she would of been quite young I wonder if she was with a relative. James R Kirkham abt 1869 Ardwick, Lancashire, England Son Ardwick Lancashire John Kirkham abt 1817 Stockport, Cheshire, England Head Ardwick Lancashire Martha Kirkham abt 1829 Macclesfield, Cheshire, England Wife Ardwick Lancashire

I am presuming you have Harriet with her husband Joseph Solomon Turner in 1891, but just incase you haven't Turner, Ernest abt 1883 Rusholme, Lancashire, England Son Rushulme Lancashire Turner, Harriet abt 1869 Ardwick, Lancashire, England Wife Rushulme Lancashire Turner, John A abt 1890 Rusholme, Lancashire, England Son Rushulme Lancashire Turner, Joseph S abt 1864 Rusholme, Lancashire, England Head Rushulme Lancashire occupation a Plumber

there is this family with John as a butcher: Joseph Braddock abt 1863 Disley, Derbyshire, England Visitor 204 Mottram Road, Godley, Cheshire, England Ann Kirkham abt 1838 Godley, Cheshire, England Wife 204 Mottram Road, Godley, Cheshire, England Eliza Kirkham abt 1869 Hyde, Cheshire, England Daughter 204 Mottram Road, Godley, Cheshire, England Harriet Ann Kirkham abt 1878 Hyde, Cheshire, England Daughter 204 Mottram Road, Godley, Cheshire, England James Kirkham abt 1874 Hyde, Cheshire, England Son 204 Mottram Road, Godley, Cheshire, England John Kirkham abt 1834 Godley, Cheshire, England Head 204 Mottram Road, Godley, Cheshire, England Martha Annie Kirkham abt 1871 Hyde, Cheshire, England Daughter 204 Mottram Road, Godley, Cheshire, England Maud Kirkham abt 1881 Godley, Cheshire, England Daughter 204 Mottram Road, Godley, Cheshire, England

alot of my ancestors appears 3 years younger in census's than what they actually were. So never trust ages given.

I have been reading a book of tips for family history. The author tells one story of an ancestor who entered the workhouse as a catmeat dealer died there and was buried as a second hand clothes dealer. In victorian times any one who owned a horse and cart would be asked to deliver all sorts of things. My grandfather's family owned a grocery and seed merchant but also used to deliver coal. This was still hapening when I was a girl but with lorries rather than horse and cart. Early logistics expert.