Genealogy Chat

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I posted a few weeks ago about my g grandmother (b 1890)whose parent's marriage certificate I couldn't find. Her parent's names were Charlotte Mary Ann Coombs (nee Jones) and Frank Coombs. Today I collected the birth certificate of her brother (b 1892) to see if it contained any other information or to see if their had been some sort of mistake in either of the parent's names. It gave the informants name as Maria Mentzel - grandmother. This lady's name was also on the birth cert of my g grandmother but didn't state it was her grandmother. I think I have found the birth cert of Charlotte Mary Ann Jones for 1855 and it gives the parents names as Maria Jones (nee Warner) and Joseph Jones. My question is could this be the grandmother or is it a loosely used term. I don't want to go on a wild goose chase for Maria Jones/Warner's second marriage when grandmother was often used to describe someone who wasn't related. Having just put a request on records board I have found her on census with a James Mentzel but no children and there is no mention of a Charlotte Mentzel or Frank Mentzel at all. Many thanks for any help/input. Louise Ps have to go out for half an hour to take son to gymnastics but will be back soon.

Have you found Maria on the last census before she appeared on the birth certificate? That might give you a clue.

Charlotte in 1861 Joseph Jones abt 1823 St Marylebone, Middlesex, England Head St Marylebone Middlesex Maria Jones abt 1823 St Marylebone, Middlesex, England Wife St Marylebone Middlesex William S Jones abt 1843 St Marylebone, Middlesex, England Son St Marylebone Middlesex Rachael Jones abt 1848 St Marylebone, Middlesex, England Daughter St Marylebone Middlesex Charlotte M Jones abt 1855 St Marylebone, Middlesex, England Daughter St Marylebone Middlesex Maria in 1871 (I think) Maria Jones abt 1821 Marylebone, Middlesex, England Head Paddington London William Jones abt 1844 Marylebone, Middlesex, England Son Paddington London Alexander Powell abt 1846 Marylebone, Middlesex, England Son-in-law Paddington London Elizabeth Powell abt 1848 Paddington, Middlesex, England Daughter Paddington London William Powell abt 1867 Paddington, Middlesex, England Grandson Paddington London Maria Powell abt 1869 Paddington, Middlesex, England Granddaughter Paddington London 1881 maybe Maria Jones abt 1820 Marylebone, Middlesex, England Head Robert Maclean abt 1861 Brompton, Middlesex, England Lodger Elisabeth Wailey abt 1804 Beddington, Surrey, England Lodger 13 Union Place, Paddington, London, England and 1891 Jones, Maria abt 1821 Marylebone Paddington London Powel, Thomas abt 1861 Marylebone Paddington London Next door... Powell, Alexander abt 1846 Marylebone Head Paddington London Powell, Elizabeth abt 1849 Paddington Wife Paddington London Powell, Tomira(Tamsin?) abt 1877 Paddington Daughter Paddington London Powell, Mary A abt 1879 Paddington Daughter Paddington London Powell, Elizabeth abt 1881 Paddington Daughter Paddington London sooo... if she's Jones in 1891, she can't have been Mentzel in 1890.

Hi Tracy, Many thanks for the census data. I had found the first two 1861/1871 which is what puzzled me. I wondered whether maybe the one I found for 1871 isn't her but another Maria Jones. But then the census image for Maria Mentzel says born Shrewsbury whereas the 1861 census for Maria Jones says born Middlesex Marylebone!! Why would she say grandmother when she isn't? And why would someone who is not related register both the births? Very strange. Louise

This is the James and Maria Mentzel census 1881: View Record Name Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relationship Residence View Image View Record James R. Mentzel abt 1825 London, Middlesex, England Head 35 Amberley Rd, Paddington, London, England View Record Maria E. Mentzel abt 1824 Shewsbury Wife 35 Amberley Rd, Paddington, London, England

Thankyou Kate, This couple are definitely the correct persons as the address given for Maria Mentzel (not the address he was born at) on the 1892 birth certificate for Frank Coombs is 63 Amberley Road, Paddington. It says on the birth certificate Maria Mentzel, Grandmother, present at the birth, (address). On Charlotte Coombs birt cert b1892 the informant is Maria Mentzel present at the birth and gives the same address as where Charlotte was born. Louise

And whether this helps or not I don't know, but this is James and Maria Mentzel in 1871. Got to go now! View Record Name Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish or Township County/Island View Image View Record James Mentzel abt 1825 Bloomsbury, Middlesex, England Head Paddington London View Record Maria Mentzel abt 1824 Shopshire, Shropshire, England Wife Paddington London View Record Thomas Mentzel abt 1855 Marylebone, Middlesex, England Son Paddington London

James Richard Mentzel married Mary Selles on 4 Mar 1844 at St James Paddington (on IGI) Mary Mentzel died aged 43 in Mar quarter 1866 (Marylebone 1a 444) So presumably Maria, born Shrewsbury, married James between 1866 and 1871. Can't find this marriage on Freebmd but there are gaps in the transcriptions for those years. Perhaps the Maria Tracey found in 1871 wasn't Charlotte's mother, or could it be that Maria Mentzel was previously Maria Coombs? Do you have the Coombs family at all?

Hi Judith, I do have the Coombs family on census. Franks mother and father were George and Jane Coombs. He was born in Fovant c1863/1864. Now that is a strange coincidence that they married at St. James Paddington as the parents of Charlotte M A Jones married in 1842 in St. James (they are also on the IGI). That is I am assuming that the birth cert I have is the right person (which I think it is as it ties in with census data) and there are no other Charlotte M A Jones within a six year period of the one I found (if that all makes sense). The mystery deepens. It seems I may have to get the marriage certificate of Maria Mintzel and James Robert Mintzel to see if she was formerly Jones or Warner. Does anyone think it could be likely that someone who wasn't Charlotte and Frank's grandmother could be present at both their births, register the births and say they are Frank's grandmother when they are not (like when you say 'auntie' when someone is just a close family friend? Many thanks for any help. Louise

I found James in 1861 with his first wife... James R Meistrell abt 1825 St Martins, Middlesex, England Head St Marylebone Middlesex Mary Meistrell abt 1825 St Marylebone, Middlesex, England Wife St Marylebone Middlesex Edward Meistrell abt 1849 St Marylebone, Middlesex, England Son St Marylebone Middlesex James T Mentrell abt 1855 St Marylebone, Middlesex, England Son St Marylebone Middlesex So, perhaps she was Maria Jones, nee Warner before she was Menztell. Maria in 1901 Maria Mentad abt 1824 Shropshire, England Head Paddington London Says 'supported by daughter' on occupation.

Thankyou Tracy for carrying on looking for me. I really appreciate it. I think I will have to order her marriage certificate in order to get to the bottom of this mystery. Many thanks. Louise :-)))

I have gone through the marriages for surname Men* for every quarter from Mar 1866 to Jun 1871 and it looks as though FreeBMD is complete for those quarters for that surname range, and the only Mentzel entry is: Marriages Jun 1870 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Mentzel Gustus Richard Pancras 1b 234a but frustratingly the spouse's name doesn't come up! I'll try looking for Jones anyway and get back to you... In the meantime, checked the image for Gustus Richard Mentzel, and it is a handwritten addition to the typed page. Kate.

Rats... there is no matching Maria Jones for that quarter, and no handwritten Maria Jones either. That quarter is supposed to be complete for marriages on FreeBMD, so my guess is that the transcriber couldn't read the handwritten addition for Gustus's spouse too clearly. But whoever he married it wasn't Maria Jones! Could she have had another husband in the meantime? And so been using yet another surname? And do we think Gustus Richard is the same as James Richard? Mind you, the name is difficult to read on the handwritten addition anyway; it could be Gustav? Kate.

I haven't had the time to check if there was another Mentzel around but my gut feeling is that 'Gustus Richard' is James Richard and that the marriage will be his marriage to 'Maria', but if only I could find the entry for her name!!! I've tried all the Marias that ancestry shows marrying in Pancras for that quarter - Jun 1870 (FreeBMD can't cope with doing that search) and none looks as though it would be the right one, judging by the page numbers, but what if the transcriber couldn't read the district where it was written on? I suppose you might have to get the marriage certificate and see what it says... Kate.

this one's different... 1891 RG12/10 folio 61 page 32 Paddington/St Mary/ED 34 Paddington 63 Amberley Rd James Met**el, Head, M, 68, Painter, Germany B Subject Moriah '', Wife, '', 68, Ironer, '' '' (transcribed Metzel on Ancestry) ------------ Death from FamilyRelatives 1899 Oct-Dec, Mentzel James Richard, 76, Chelsea 1a 279 but no Maria Mentzel with that spelling 1866-1920

I found Maria in Dec qtr 1901. Let me see if I can find it again.... Here we go... Deaths Dec 1901 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mentzell Maria 77 Paddington 1a 7 James R in 1861 is a House Painter James in 1871 is a House Painter James R in 1881 is a House Painter James in 1891 is a Painter. Likely to be same person, but why the change in POB??

Thankyou all so much for carrying on looking up for me. I have been out all day so haven't been able to reply til now. Many thanks. I am going to sift through the data you have found for me, I think the census data for the Mentzels is definitely them and why they suddenly say Germany is very strange but the address given in the 1891 census is the address she gives on Frank Coombs birth certificate so this is definitely her. I have been thinking maybe this man and her husband may have been friends and that when they were both widowed they decided to marry (maybe for children). My g grandmother married her husbands best friend after her husband was killed in WW1 so it is a possibility. It is a bit of a coincidence that the marriage of James R Mentzel to Mary Selles is in the same church as the marriage of Maria Warner to Joseph Jones. I don't think the marriage for Gustav is the same person as I think I saw a separate entry for him on the census. Once again many thanks for all your help. Louise

Oh, I'm so glad you said that about Gustav because I was getting so frustrated at not being able to find his wife on the marriage indexes. I'm sure ancestry used to let you put the page number in as a search item, but now you can't. But in that case, where is the James and Maria marriage? FreeBMD's marriage coverage is supposed to be 100% for 1866 to 1871. I don't suppose they went to Germany to get married, did they? Kate.

Hi Kate, Many thanks for looking again for me. I hadn't thought of that they might have married in Germany, I will bear that in mind. I am going to go to the FRC and look for their marriage to see if I can find it. I hope so as it was the fact that I can't find Maria's daughter's marriage cert. and therefore have not been able to double check father's name against birth cert., that made me get her brother's birth certificate for extra information. Now it seems I am chasing another missing marriage.....Ahh! I will let you know if I have any sucess. Once again, many thanks. Louise