Genealogy Chat

I am knocked over by the generosity and determination of the helpers on the Tips Board and hope in the future I can contribute as well, however I am still in the help required mode. This is what I have: My grandfather Charles Frederick ENGLE, age 27, a stores checker? of 92 Hawthorne Road Bootle (near Liverpool), father Charles Henry Engle, a Cattle Salesman married to my grandmother Gwenllian JONES, age 20, no occupation noted, of No 1 Harbour Road Cardiff, father Benjamin Jones Harbour Master in the Register Office in Cardiff on 4 Oct 1909. On 28 Oct 1915 Gwenllian gave birth to my Father John Frederick ENGLE at Bream Street Coogee in Sydney. On the birth cert Charles Frederick Engle is described as a Cattle Salesman aged 35 years born In Kadina in South Australia. Problem1 Despite searching all the indexes at Society of Australian Geneologists on births in South Australia and enlisting the help of the local history group I can't find any record of his birth in Kadina in South Australia or any where else in Australia for that matter. I also had a look in the UK in case he was telling fibs and found a Charles Frederick Engle born on 22 Jul 1880 at Chiswick in Middlesex to Christey and Elizabeth Engle but this not soundlike his parents So I have come to a full stop on Charles Frederick Engle Problem 2 His father Charles Henry Engle. I just don't seem to be able find a trace of him in Australia or UK . Assuming him to be about 20 to 40 at his sons birth in about 1880 puts his birth about 1840-1860 Any advice would be gratefully received John of Balmain Sydney

hi ...have you tried different spellings of the name incase transcript wrong?

Do you have Charles Frederick's death cert? This looks like the ref for it on the NSW BDM site: Registration Number Last Name Given Name(s) Father's Given Name(s) Mother's Given Name(s) District 10179/1925 ENGLE CHARLES F 47 YRS MENTAL HOSPITAL DRUMMOYNE His parents names aren't given, so possibly the informant didn't have that info, but the cert should have his birthplace, if it was known by the informant. Would be worth a try. Richard

This would appear to be Charles Frederick in 1901 Record Charles Engle abt 1882 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Brother Liverpool Lancashire View Record Emily Engle abt 1887 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Sister Liverpool Lancashire View Record A J Houghton abt 1900 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Daughter Liverpool Lancashire View Record Clara Houghton abt 1893 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Daughter Liverpool Lancashire View Record Isabella Houghton abt 1898 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Daughter Liverpool Lancashire View Record Mary Tim Houghton abt 1876 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Head Liverpool Lancashire View Record George Ingham abt 1882 England Visitor Liverpool Lancashire Victoria (in Canberra)

Victoria - I looked at that one, but if you look at the image the surname looks more like Eagles to me. And to confirm it, this looks like Mary Ann's marriage to Mr Houghton: Marriages Sep 1892 Eagles Mary Ann Liverpool 8b 235 Houghton Charles Liverpool 8b 235 Sorry! Richard

Richard!! - to quote the Toyota ads - B*gger!! I have been trying to find some sign of them since I posted that last message and have found, nil, nada, nothing and zilch. Will keep trying though! At least for another half an hour. Victoria

Well I've found Gwenllian Jones in 1891, at least! Benjamin's occupation is ''berthing master'' and the address is 14 John St, Penarth, Cardiff: Benjamin Jones abt 1851 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Head Sarah A Jones abt 1855 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Wife Benjamin Jones abt 1877 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Son George Jones abt 1879 Grangetown, Glamorgan, Wales Son Catherine Jones abt 1881 Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter William Jones abt 1883 Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales Son Edith Jones abt 1885 Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter David Jones abt 1887 Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales Son >>>> Gwenllian Jones abt 1889 Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter Source information: RG12/4402 Registration district: Cardiff Sub registration district: Cardiff ED, institution, or vessel: 54 Folio: 141 Page: 54 Did she remarry after Charles Frederick died? There is this death on NSW BDM which could be her - the parents names match the 1891 census details above: Registration Number, Last Name, Given Name(s), Father's Given Name(s), Mother's Given Name(s), District 20963/1968, FISHER, GWENLLIAN THOMAS, BENJAMIN, SARAH ANN, NEWTOWN Richard

Here's Gwen again in 1901. Benjamin is harbour master and the address is 1 Iron Cottages, Penarth Harbour, Cardiff: Benjamin Jones abt 1850 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Head Sarah A Jones abt 1860 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Wife Benjamin Jones abt 1876 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Son George Jones abt 1878 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Son William Jones abt 1883 Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales Son Edith Jones abt 1884 Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter >>>>> Gwenny Jones abt 1889 Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter Charles Jones abt 1891 Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales Son B Jones abt 1895 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter John Jones abt 1897 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Son Source information: RG13/4988 Registration district: Cardiff Sub-registration district: West Cardiff ED, institution, or vessel: 29 Folio: 201 Page: 72 and a possible marriage for Benjamin & Sarah Ann: Marriages Sep 1875 Hayward Sarah Ann Cardiff 11a 372 Jones Benjamin Cardiff 11a 372

You're too good Richard! I was searching for Gwenllian in the 1901 census (because if she had been telling the truth and was 20 in 1915 she wouldn't have been around in 1891!!) when I 'lost' AncestryGenes etc. I am not sure if it is because my system and I are both slow - but I am definitely in need of lessons in searching too I think!! Still, makes no difference ultimately, as long as the unfindable ARE found - and I need the practice!!! Well done Richard - won't Mr Engle be pleased? (forgotten his given name) Victoria

Thanks Victoria! But John may already have Gwenllian's details - it was the 2 Charles Engles that we're supposed to find!! btw - Gwenllian was 20 in 1909, when she married - not in 1915 when she gave birth to John! No sign of the Engles - I wouldn't rule out that Christy/Elizabeth one that you found, John - did you notice that they married in Manchester, which is the right part of the world if they did eventually settle in Lancashire: Marriages Dec 1876 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bridgestock Elizabeth Manchester 8d 454 ENGLE Christy Manchester 8d 454 GALLAGHER James Manchester 8d 454 Reddin Elizabeth Manchester 8d 454

Thanks Richard and Victoria You both bowl me over, I go off to do a few jobs and when I come back you have been beavering away and coming up with all sorts of info. I was torn between putting too much detail or not enough detail in my original message so I do know some of the detail you have come back with. First to 'Have a nice day' I did try variations on the Engle name when searching in Australia, such as Engel, Angle etc, but it gets to a point where the information becomes meaningless without some other reference points. Thanks anyway. Second to Richard, Yes I have Charles Fredericks death certificate which was a bit tricky at first as he died under another name 'George Young' in a mental hospital on 7 Sept 1925. The only information of relevance was age 47,(ie born about 1878) occupation Meat Grader, married Gwenllian Jones in Cardiff at 27 years of age (ie about 1908) and his father was Charles Henry Engle. I presume this info was supplied by Gwen as she had to claim and then bury him. Then to Victoria re Charles Engle 1901 in Liverpool. I will put this info on hold for a while based on Richards next entry on possible name Eagles. Richard re Gwenllian Jones in 1891 at 14 John St Cardiff, yes that is her and the Jones mob and again in 1901 at No 1 Iron Cottages Penarth Harbour (which I think has gone with the waterfront reconstruction) Also yes that is the marriage of Benjamin Jones dock gate man in 1875 to Sarah Ann Heywood whose dad George was shown as Harbour Master (I wonder if this is how Benjamin became Harbour master later on) Victoria re Gwenllians age, she was born on 9 April 1889 at 30 John Street Penarth Re Christy Engle and Elizabeth Bridgstock having a son Charles Frederick Engle at 14 Dale Street Chiswick on 22 Oct 1880 Again I have put that on hold til something more likely comes along (if ever) Richard,The other info I have re Gwenllian is that she married Ralph Stanley Fisher in Coogee in 1956 when she was 67. Skuttlebutt was that he was on his death bed but instead of having all his shares stuffed behind the lounge it turned out he didn't have a cracker. After all this I am still not sure about whether Charles Frederick was born in Kadina in South Australia or some where else about 1878-1880 and whether he had a father named Charles Henry Engle and the birth, marriage and death dates and location for his father and mother who at this stage I don't even have a name for. Thanks for all your help and diligence John of Balmain Sydney

PS to Richard in Perth Gwenllian Jones died on 29 Mar 1968 as Gwenllian Fisher. On the death cert, from info from my Father John Frederick Engle, it states only that Gwen was married to Charles Engle at Liverpool England at age 22. Given that my father was only 9 when his father Charles Frederick died in the mental hospital, and I could not find any information or even mention of him in my fathers papers when he died, it seems there was little or no info on him within the family. The other thing was that my father never spoke of his father, couldn't understand until I found Charles Fredericks death certificate and looked at the associated papers from the mental hospital, it appears that he went mad and was wandering the streets when my father was very young. So you can see I am still stuck with no birth cert for him and no real info on his mother and father except that his father was apparently named Charles Henry Engle and was a cattle salesman. Given that the roots of Engle seem to be Engel in Germany maybe he anglisised his name and I may never find him Thanks for all your help John from Balmain Sydney

Hi John Well I'm glad that the info that I found on Gwenllian was correct, even if you already had it! The fact that the Engles can't be found in UK, other than for Charles & Gwenllian's marriage, does suggest that they were only in UK briefly - I'm sure that they couldn't have slipped through the civil reg and censuses without some trace somewhere! Likewise, because there's no sign of them in Aus (CFE's birth, or CHE's death) would suggest that they were not from here either. Therefore I would agree with your theory that they may have come from Europe (probably Germany) and anglicised their name. Some of my lot moved from Germany to England in the mid 19thC and within a decade had moved to Queensland, Aus. Maybe Charles Frederick did likewise - moving to Liverpool after the 1901 census and then to Australia after 1909 but before 1915? Quite possibly Charles father didn't move from his home country (otherwise, why no death reg in UK or Aus?). Or maybe his father was in fact Christy Engle (and was known by the English name Charles Henry)? Will be fairly hard to prove, however! I can only suggest that you look through the passenger lists at the library to try and find when Charles & Gwen arrived from England - it might give you some clues. You have a fairly tight date range (i.e. 1909-1915) so stand a reasonable chance of finding them. Other than that, I don't know what else to suggest, other than waiting for the 1911 census, and hoping that they were still in England at that time! Good luck! Richard.

Richard and Victoria Thanks for your help with Chas F and Chas H As you say Richard, it is strange not to be able to pick them up in UK or Australia. The big problem is there are no living relatives that I know to get a lead on them. A forlorn hope is that Gwenllians sister Beatrice Elizabeth Jones came to Australia and had a daughter Betty Gwenllian Evans in about 1922 and a son Clifford S Evans who I think went to Queensland has now passed away. He married a woman named Lorna but I have not been able to track her down at the moment. The other tenuous thread is that Gwenllians youngest brother John Lewis Jones also came to Australia by 1922 but maybe earlier, posibly with Gwen and maybe even also with Beatrice between 1909 and 1915. Even though he lived not far from Gwen in Coogee Sydney all his life no one in the family has ever mentioned him (mmm strange) He married Ivy Elfrida Fisher in Coogee in 1922 and had two children Keith b. abt 1924 and Rudolf . He died in Coogee in 1974 I have not been able to find any more info on the two sons at this stage but if one of them or their children (if any) are still alive there may be some clues to Chas F and Chas H but as you can see I am clutching at some pretty thin straws by this stage. We live in hope Thanks again John of Balmain Sydney

Ivy Elfrida wasn't a sister to Gwen's disappointingly poor latter-day husband I suppose? This is my third attempt to post this message. Yesterday I abandoned it when I wondered at it's usefulness - and this afternoon, having read your most recent posts, the blessed system froze. There is a family in Southwark in 1861 Samuel Philip Arnold abt 1807 Nk, England Lodger Southwark St George Surrey View Record Gusta Mich Cenheim abt 1840 Preußen Lodger Southwark St George Surrey View Record Charles Engle abt 1813 Germany Head Southwark St George Surrey View Record Charles Engle abt 1846 Germany Son Southwark St George Surrey View Record Elizabeth Engle abt 1854 Germany Daughter Southwark St George Surrey View Record Frederic Engle abt 1849 Germany Son Southwark St George Surrey View Record Hanny Engle abt 1861 St George; Southwark, Surrey, England Daughter Southwark St George Surrey View Record Hedwig Engle abt 1829 Germany Wife Southwark St George Surrey View Record Leopold Engle abt 1852 Austria Son Southwark St George Surrey View Record Mery Engle abt 1850 Germany Daughter Southwark St George Surrey I wondered if the younger Charles could have been Charles Henry - he would have been about the right age to father Charles Frederick in about 1880. As you see, they were fairly peripetetic - Germany to Austria, back to Germany and over to England sometime after 1854. Also - Name: Charles Engle Birth: abt 1813 - Germany Residence: 1861 - Southwark St George, Surrey, England 1871 England Census Record Census View Image Name: M Engle Birth: abt 1807 - Germany Residence: 1871 - Lambeth, London, England 1880 United States Federal Census Record Census View Image Name: Joseph Engle Birth: <1814> - Germany Birth: 1813/1814 Residence: 1880 - Grossepoint, Wayne, Michigan I am wondering if some cataclysm overtook the family and the whole family left Germany about the same time. Best of luck with your searches, let me know if there is anything I can help you with (I have Ancestry and have already searched the LDS site to no avail). Victoria

Hi Victoria Thanks for all that info. I am just trying to get my head around it. First I don't know if Ivy Elfrida Fisher was a sister or other relative to Ralph Stanley Fisher or 'old fishface' as my grandmother Gwen had trained her tame cockatoo to call him, She was a wild Welshwoman to the end. I will chase up any connection. Second The Engle family from Southwark sounds very interesting. Based on the lack of birth information from both UK and Australia for Charles Henry Engle it is more than likely he was born elsewhere and because of the strong German roots for the name Engle, Germany is the most likely place. Assuming that it is Charles Henry Engle born in Germany in 1846 and living in Southwark with his family in 1861 (aged about 15) I wonder what happened to him? At some time between 1861 and about 1880 he presumably either married Charles Fredericks mother in England?? or came to Australia and married and was in South Australia at the birth of Charles Frederick about 1878-1880 (If the birth info of Chas F on was true) I am not sure how you access the census information but is there any information on this family in a later census ie 1871, 1881 etc. If not maybe this means they have left England for places unknown Germany, Australia?? Thanks for all your help Regards John from Balmain Sydney

Hi John I have quite a lot of sympathy for poor old 'fishface' Fisher!! Mind you, if he told Gwen he had heaps of shares I guess he got what he deserved!! And Gwen didn't have an easy life either did she? Oh dear, nothing was different then to the way it is now - and our ancestors no more angelic than us! Have had a quick look on Ancestry and this is the Charles born 1848 in Germany (the one I thought could be Charles Fredericks father) but clearly isn't because the mother's name is wrong 1880 United States Federal Census Record about Charles Engle Name: Charles Engle Age: 32 Estimated birth year: <1848> Birthplace: Germany Occupation: Carpenter Relationship to head-of-household: Son Home in 1880: Madison, Dane, Wisconsin Marital status: Single Race: White Gender: Male Father's birthplace: GER Mother's name: Elliza Engle Mother's birthplace: GER Cannot read/write: View Image Blind: View Image Deaf and dumb: View Image Otherwise disabled: View Image Idiotic or insane: View Image Now THIS Charles was a DROVER - so a bit more 'cattle oriented' - View original image View blank form Another Charles- Name: Charles Engle Age: 35 Estimated birth year: <1845> Birthplace: Germany Occupation: Drover Relationship to head-of-household: Self Home in 1880: Detroit, Wayne, Michigan Marital status: Married Race: White Gender: Male Spouse's name: Minnie Engle Father's birthplace: GER Mother's birthplace: GER Cannot read/write: View Image Blind: View Image Deaf and dumb: View Image Otherwise disabled: View Image Idiotic or insane: View Image Now, it would appear that American records are not part of what I have signed up for. However, there is a fortnight's free trial available which I suggest you might like to try. Much easier for you to look for what you want (when you want) rather than waiting for me!! I went to copy another Charles Engle (there are scads of them, all born around 1845, all over the place) but it wouldn't let me (nor will it allow me to view the originals in my present 'condition'). Victoria

John - just had another look at the English census' - and by 1871 there is a noticable 'lack' of Engles born in Germany. In fact only two come up - Philip born about 1807 and M Engles born about 1800!! Hedwig doesn't show up, but then she COULD have died - but then neither does Leopold (an easy to search name!!) so it looks as though they may all have upped stakes and gone on to fresher fields. Victoria

Hi Victoria You are a gem. I appreciate your perserverance with these pesky Engles. But you know what it is like where you can't find someone, especially direct decendants, it starts to drive you a bit crazy. I think you are right that the Southwark Engles, arrived in UK between 1854 and 1861 and were gone again by 1871. I will recheck the shipping records to Australia for them and will let you know the results, from memory I didn't find Charles Engle previously. As for the American Engles, yes there are scads of them, and I was struggling to make a link between them and Chas H and Chas F in Australia. Do you know anything about origins of names? I thought that Charles Henry sounded a very Anglised name even if Frederick was germanic but maybe with the german Henrys you are turning up it is common in Germany or maybe there is a german equivilent? I will try the 2 week free trial and see if I can make any meaningful connections with the Americans. It would have been nice if Australia had the same retention of census information as the UK instead of destroying it, would make life over here just a little bit simpler. Thanks again John from Balmain Sydney

The German equivalent of Charles Henry Engle would be something like Karl Heinrich Engels. Frederick would be Friedrich.