Genealogy Chat

Hallo, some of you may recall I have a naughty ancestor called Elizabeth Gray, who unlike her siblings, didn't get married until after she'd produced two children. The first one was Octavian, born 1847. Today I got the birth certificate for his illegitimate sister, Mary and it named a father...

Samuel Timbers. Mary's name in the birth cert is Mary Timbers and the birth registration is in the indexes as Mary Timbers Timbers and Mary Timbers Gray. I've found Mary on various censuses and she appears not to have used the Timbers name. But her father is Samuel Timbers, and it says he's a gentleman's butler. Goody, I thought, as I'd found Elizabeth in service in 1861 whilst Mary was staying with Elizabeth's sister Mary Rudrum, nee Gray. But I can only find one likely Samuel Timbers and he appears to have died in December following Mary's birth in April 1859! Can't find the blighter in 1851 or 1841. Gggrrr. One step forwards, two backwards...

Hi nell, what was the place of birth for the child born April 1859 please. Pen -x-

Norton on the birth cert, though its actually Norton subcourse, Norfolk.

Is this the poss that you spotted - a cordwainer 1851 View Record John Allison abt 1821 Wretton, Norfolk, England Visitor Binham Norfolk View Record Hannah Bonnett abt 1834 Binham, Norfolk, England Servant Binham Norfolk View Record Joseph Timbers abt 1850 Binham, Norfolk, England Son Binham Norfolk View Record Margt Timbers abt 1823 Heydon, Norfolk, England Wife Binham Norfolk View Record Samuel Timbers abt 1826 Cattishall, Norfolk, England Head Binham Norfolk

Hi thanks for looking, I am puzzled as the chap is a cordwainer (ie shoemaker) so becoming a gentleman's butler seems a bit of a job shift. I've found a likely chap who was bonrn 1838 but I've checked and he was born and died in Aylsham reg district which is north of Norwich and some way away from Norton and Langley where Eliz. was born. I'm wondering if she made him up? She's a real pain, never on the census with either of her children, who were with their grandparents or aunts/uncles - but never together!!! In later life she came over respectable and settled down to married life in Yarmouth with a labourer called Thomas Baxter from Wormegay. nell

Nell, it can happen - I have an ancestor who went from Cow Dealer/Farmer to being a registrar! Could you try and find a baptism for the children and see if that gives any clues at all?

Oohhh....Wormegay is only about 8 miles from me ! Will have a look at the 1841 - but nothing 'jumping' out. There must be another Samuel Timbers somewhere - marriages View Record Margaret Churchill 1867 Oct-Nov-Dec Yarmouth (1837-1924) Norfolk View Record Elizabeth Hunn 1867 Oct-Nov-Dec Yarmouth (1837-1924) Norfolk View Record James Laws 1867 Oct-Nov-Dec Yarmouth (1837-1924) Norfolk View Record Samuel Timbers 1867 Oct-Nov-Dec Yarmouth (1837-1924) Norfolk ********************** View Record Abigail Clifford 1855 Apr-May-Jun Yarmouth (1837-1924) Norfolk View Record Caroline Cockell 1855 Apr-May-Jun Yarmouth (1837-1924) Norfolk View Record James Raymes 1855 Apr-May-Jun Yarmouth (1837-1924) Norfolk View Record Samuel Peacock Timbers 1855 Apr-May-Jun Yarmouth (1837-1924) Norfolk ********************* View Record Sarah Brett 1844 Oct-Nov-Dec Walsingham Norfolk View Record Samuel Lake 1844 Oct-Nov-Dec Walsingham Norfolk View Record Robert Sadler 1844 Oct-Nov-Dec Walsingham Norfolk View Record Samuel Peacock Timbers 1844 Oct-Nov-Dec Walsingham Norfolk ********************** Birth Reg Name: Samuel Peacock Timbers Year of Registration: 1848 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: Walsingham County: Norfolk Volume: 13 Page: 356 (click to see others on page)

Penelope Thanks, I'd spotted him - but as he was born 1848 I don't think he would be fathering a child in 1859! Baptism on the IGI just says MARY GREY Birth: 30 APR 1859 Norton, Norfolk Christening: 17 APR 1864 Hardley, Norfolk, England Parents: Mother: ELIZABETH GREY C013212 1715 - 1875 The birthdate ties in with the birth cert, though she seems to have been baptised a bit late! nell

Don't forget, he would have had to be with her when she registered the birth for Mary, as they were not married, so she can't have completely made him up......(unless she took an imposter!) Merry

Unless she lied to the Registrar.... OC

Have you checked this for 1851: Pamal Timbers abt 1823 location relationship city Norfolk He's down as male.

I can't find the rest of the shoemakers family on the following census, to see if they thought he was dead, too! If it is a different chap (and he IS alive in 1961) and he really was a gentleman's butler, then he might be anywhere! Gentlemen had a bad habit of travelling a lot :o(( Merry

Merry and Olde Crone She is down on the birth cert as Elizabeth Grey so wasn't passing herself off as married. BUT she is the only signatory (if you count X, lol!) on the cert. Curiouser and curiouser...

Phoenix Just seen your message off to check now! Merry Yes, I know. He mightn't even have been born in Norfolk, but just there at the right time to father a child. He may have been sacked for getting the staff preggers and taken up another career, dratted man! nell

'Pamal' is Parmal on the census image, but the chap I found registered in Aylsham says born in Sall and that's where there were various Timbers. This one is an ag lab. I'm wondering if the chap on the birth cert was elevated to 'gentleman's butler' cos it sounded better, but can't understand why he didn't have to sign his name. This Elizabeth is SO frustrating, but at least she named her first child Octavian, so he has been easy to trace, even though he doesn't have a dad..... nell

He didn't have to sign the cert.....he had to be there though.....otherwise it would say nothing about the father.....just a blank........ So.....a man was with her!! Someone!!!!! lol (presumably someone who looked like a gentleman's butler?!!) Merry

Oooh, thanks for that Merry, I was going a bit doolally. It's the heat! So I'm still no further forward in finding this bloke. Mary was born 30 April and her birth registered 12th May. I bet it is the chap who died the same year!!!! I wonder if he promised Elizabeth marriage? She wasn't a very bad girl, there was an 11-year gap between the births of her two out-of-wedlock children, and she got a husband in the end. nell

You know you are going to have to get the death cert!!!! Merry

But will it help? Suppose it doesn't say 'gentleman's butler' (presumably as opposed to 'yobbo's butler'), it still doesn't mean it WASN'T him. It would be fab if it said 'father of ' on it, wouldn't it. It's just typical that of all the illegitimate children's certs I have, the one where the father is named is untraceable. Perhaps he didn't mind being on the birth cert as he KNEW he was going to die fairly soon!!! nell