Genealogy Chat

Were getting our modern european languages mixed up here!

Oh ****! Got me circumflexes muddled with me cedillas then, didnt I? Still, my excuse is, its a VERY long time since I spoke Norman French as my first language..... Take a first class honours, everyone, in Finding Substitutes For Keys You Dont Have On Your Keyboard. OC

Heather - These were PCC (Prerogative Court of Canterbury) wills purchased through Documents Online (only £3.50 each and sent as PDF files via e-mail). It's worth a search if you haven't tried already. Actually, I'd be interested in getting more recent wills as well, but since almost all of my English ancestors were from Devon and Cornwall, they were destroyed when the Germans bombed Exeter during the Second World War. Tim

Tim Have you scoured A2A for Wills? I have found one or two this way, which are not where you would expect them to be (e.g. in a Solicitor's papers, or in a local archive - Cornwall is good at this sort of thing) And, on A2A, some of the REALLY old ones are transcribed there and then as part of the title. OC

Thanks OC – Yes, I’ve used A2A a number of times, but I should keep checking as I believe they’re always adding new material. Lately, I’ve restricted my searches to CRO’s to avoid getting hits from other parts of the country, but perhaps I should expand my searches. I have found leases in Cornwall for my g-g-grandmother’s brother (he was a tailor in Carharrack) but can’t decide if they’d be worth ordering or not. Tim P.S. There’s something call the ‘Character Map’ for those keys that aren’t on your keyboard – that’s where all those fancy screen name symbols come from.

:-) Hope you don't mind Tim, but I was intrigued by this. In a probate inventory (1539- 1804) book I have, there is a glossary. Day house is listed as dairy or room where cheese was made. Hoggshead is listed as a measure of ale etc containing 54 gallons. So it is possible that hogge refers to the container usually used for such an amount, and that day refers to cheese or other dairy stuff. so it could be a barrel of cheddar! xx Jen

Surely a bequest from one lady to two other ladies has to be an article of clothing of some sort suitable for day wear? Purely a guess, but perhaps there is a list of obsolete dress terms somewhere on line? Update: assuming Englishe is a female name.

If Daye is Dairy and Hogge is sheep then surely we have a milking sheep?

Roger – There is some merit in your idea – Alice did bequeath “three kercheifes three neckercheifes, three aprons twoe smockes and one newe petticote” to one of her servants and also gave “the one halfe of my Apparrell bothe Lynnen and wollen” to each of her two daughters. However, as mentioned earlier, there were also bequests of sheep, a cow, and “the lesser heifer” (?), so livestock was also considered an appropriate inheritance, even for women. I did spend some time researching this term and didn’t find any clothing connection, but I’d be quite happy to be corrected about this. Tim

Tim Not that I want to spend your money FOR you, you understand, but I have found leases to be an excellent source of info, although mine have admittedly been to do with land, rather than business property. Who holds the documents? If its here in Cornwall, I can go and have a looky for you if you want. OC

Mark – I think you may be on to something – it would certainly make sense. However, I’d need to find out if hogge only refers to a young sheep or simply one that hasn’t been sheared yet (does one shear a sheep that’s used mainly for milk?). Jen – I’m not entirely convinced that hogge = hogshead, but I’ll keep an open mind. If you get a chance sometime, perhaps you could send me a reference for the probate glossary you mentioned. Thanks to both of you (and everyone else) for your ideas and suggestions – you’re a brilliant lot! Tim

why would there be a term lamb hogge?......that would suggest that the word hogge isnt an animal at all but either a describing word like say joint or portion,or an associated object like a pot or vessel maybe-ironiaclly ive downloaded an olde english dictionary -and its not on there.

Tim, my guess was just a shot in the dark. As you have an interest in Elizabethan wills, you might like to know (if you don't already) about a new publication from Surrey Record Society 'Surrey probate inventories 1558-1603'. Hardly a book to read from cover to cover, but fascinating to dip into. I got my copy as a member, but it is priced (£20), so I imagine might be available for sale at family history fairs, etc. It should be possible also to borrow a copy through the public library service. ISBN is 0 902978 14 4, should you be interested. Incidentally, it has a four and a bit page glossary, but no help with your enquiry, unfortunately.

This is an extract from a will I found on the Web: 'Item I geve to Cutberte Horkett one Lambe hogge, and to Elizabeth Horkett twelve pence in money. Item I geve to Peter Greenberry on Lambe hogge. Item I geve to John Dickenson my godsonne my godsonne One Lambe hogge and to everye one of his bretherne twelve pence a peece. Item I geve to John Atton of Thomas Atton one Lambe hogge. Item to Thomas Wallott twelve pence. Item I geve to my father Dickenson Tenne shillings and to my mother an Amgott. Item I geve to my sister Southwell two ewes and two Lambes, And to my brother William Dickenson my best gowne and to my sister his wife Tenne shillings, And to my Brother Mr. Thomas Dickenson Tenne shillings. Item I geve to Jane Atton one Ewe and a lambe.' I think lamb hogge must refer to a male sheep (ie a ram) Mark

yes i agree- makes sense-it means male-a tup.....the only other possibility is herd !!.....basically a breeding sheep -they were more valuable-and so mentioned earlier with the bigger beneficiaries maybe.

I dont think you would shear a sheep that was under a year old anyway - lambs are born in the spring, grow a bit of fluff which sees them through the winter and they are probably shorn when the weather gets warmer, so would be about a year old. Also, I dont think there was so much specialisation in farming then. Sheep were sheep, you sheared them and then you ate them (as mutton probably) OC

Tim, you're welcome. Glossary was from The Goods and Chattels of our Forefathers: Frampton Cotterill & District Probate Inventories, 1539-1804, ed John S Moore 1976, Phillimore. Glossary is about 50 pages! Also have Old Country & Farming Words: Gleaned from agricultural books by James Britten Will keep watching this thread xx Jen

OC: Thank you very much - I appreciate your offer. I’ll send you a PM. Roger: Thanks for the information about the probate inventory book. I’m not sure if I’ll buy one or not, but I’ll look for it in the local family history library. Mark/Ego: Here’s an extract from another will found on the Internet, dated 1585: “I geve and bequethe unto Henry Setle, my sonne, xls. I geve to elizabeth, my doughter, xis. To M'garet, my doughter, ils. To Anne Potter, one ewe hogge. To Barbary potter, one Ewe hogge. To Mary Potter, one ewe hogg, and to Janet Potter, one ewe hogg, and the same to be delyered ymediately after my decease, to be kepte togehter joyntely to the use of th esayd Anne, Barbary, Mary, and Janet, till any one of them be of Lawfull yeres. To Mary setle, doughter of Richard Setle, on Ewe hogge. To Robert Setle, my brother sonne, my weddinge Jackett and one pair of hose. To my brother, Will'm Settle, one Read Quy, in consideration of one wedder and one ox which I had of hum. I geve unto john Setle, sonne of Henry Setle, one Ewe. I geve unto Will'm Setle, sonne of Lawrence Settle, one ewe. Unto Michael Potter, one dublett. Unto Henry Setle, my sonne, on fether bedd. The Residew of all my goodes....to Isabel, my wife, Henry, my sonne, Elizabeth and M'garet, my doughters, whom I make my full joynte executors.” It would seem from this that ewe hogges were not the same as ewes, and if Ego is correct, they were more valuable (since listed first). If hogges were used for breeding, it would suggest that they were not necessarily younger animals, which makes the idea that daye hogges were used for milking more reasonable. Thanks again, all – Tim