Genealogy Chat

My dads mothers family have got me so confused, I don't know what to do next. I've recently discovered my nan had a different maiden name (Winn), everyone else in the family believed it was (Hall), obviously she had a different unknown father, she is 1st born. Her birth cert shows no father details as does her marriage cert. Now, her mother, my gt grandmother was born maiden name Maddocks, I've got the right cert because my dads cousin has the original, but when she married her maiden name was Winn. Father was Joseph Winn. My gt gt grandmother married a William Winn and had 3 children in 1881 census. In 1901 census she is still Eliza Winn, married, 3 more kids all with surname Maddocks, Maddocks children are stated as her step children, but my gt nans birth cert shows Eliza is her mother, father, Joseph Maddocks. Haven't found Joseph on 1901 census yet. Why would my gt grandmothers name change to Winn, and is there anyway I could find this out? None of my family know any details of my findings, although my nan has a sister, still living, I know her very well, but I'm a little bit worried to ask for info in case she is not totally honest with me, or worse, knows things but won't say, she is from a generation who are very proud, and certain things shouldn't be discussed, left in the past as they say. It would be a big deal to her, even in these days, if I tried to suggest her mother may have been born out of wedlock. Any ideas anyone? Hope this message makes sense...... Carol

Carol when & where was your great grandmother born? Georgina.

My gt grandmother was born in Ship Street, Canning Town, West Ham, 1st Oct 1892.

Carol your message is very hard to understand so correct me if I am wrong. This is your family in 1901.... Name: Eliza Winn Age: 15 Estimated birth year: abt 1886 Relation: Daughter Mother's name: Eliza A Gender: Female Where born: Mile End, Middlesex, England Civil parish: West Ham Ecclesiastical parish: St Gabriel County/Island: Essex Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Education: Employment status: View image Registration district: West Ham Sub-registration district: Plaistow ED, institution, or vessel: 63 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 75 Household Members: Name Age Annie Maddocks 8 Joseph H Maddocks 4 Willie Maddocks 11 Eliza Winn 15 Eliza A Winn 44 George E Winn 21 So is this Eliza senior in 1891??? Name: Eliza Maddox Age: 35 Estimated birth year: abt 1856 Relation: Wife Spouse's name: Joseph Gender: Female Where born: Shoreditch, London, England Civil parish: West Ham Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke County/Island: Essex Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Education: Employment status: View image Registration district: West Ham Sub-registration district: West Ham ED, institution, or vessel: 11 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Edward Maddox 11 Eliza Maddox 35 Joseph Maddox 42 Rose Maddox 14 Willie Maddox 1 Georgina.

Yes, Georgina, thanks for replying.

Carol can you give me a little more info... What was your Gt Gt Grandmothers name, What was your Gt Grand mothers name & who did these ladies marry? Is this your grandmothers birth reference... Births Dec 1892 (>99%) Maddocks Annie Elizabeth W.Ham 4a 75 Georgina.

Sorry Georgina, been so long, My grandmother Annie Eliza Winn or Hall married James Jasper Venton in 1931. My gt grandmother, Annie Elizabeth Maddocks or Winn married James William Hall March 1911. My gt gt grandmother as far as I know only married William Winn, not sure of the date. Yes the date you give is correct. Thanks for your help - Carol.... p.s my gt gt grandmothers name is Eliza Ann Winn.

Hi Carol we will start at the top & work backwards. I have checked the record of James J Venton's marriage & he married in the december quarter 1931 to Annie E Winn in West Ham Ref No: 4a-763. I will look for the others now. Georgina.

James W Hall married Annie Winn in 1911.... Marriages Mar 1911 (92%) Coller Elizabeth A W. Ham 4a 14 >>>Hall James W W. Ham 4a 14 Partlett Frederick J W. Ham 4a 14 >>>Winn Annie W.Ham 4a 14 Georgina.

Thanks Georgina, appreciate your help. I do have my grandparents marriage cert, my sister has it at the moment, the date does sound correct. - Carol

Georgina, this is where it starts to get confusing. Marriage of James William Hall and Annie Winn. Fathers names: James William Hall & Joseph Winn. According to Annie's birth cert, she was born Annie Elizabeth Maddocks. Father Joseph Maddocks. Mother: Eliza Maddocks, late Winn, formerley Athill. The 1901 census contradicts Eliza's surname, on census she is Eliza Winn. - Carol

Carol this is Eliza'a marriage reference to William Winn... Marriages Dec 1874 (>99%) >>>ATHILL Eliza Ann St. Saviour 1d 242 WALKER Susan St. Saviour 1d 242 Wigley John William St.Saviour 1d 242 >>>WINN William St. Saviour 1d 242 I will see if I can find her other marriages. Georgina.

This is the family on the 1881 census...Rasina looks like Rosina on the image. Name: Eliza Winn Age: 26 Estimated birth year: abt 1855 Relation: Wife Spouse's name: William Gender: Female Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Lambeth County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 17 Brook St Condition as to marriage: Married Education: Employment status: View image Registration district: Lambeth Sub-registration district: Lambeth Church Second ED, institution, or vessel: 2 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Eliza Winn 26 George Winn 1 Rasina Winn 4 William Winn 30 Georgina.

Thankyou Georgina, I've seen this marriage reference before, wasn't sure if I had the right people. You have confirmed it to me now, we both can't be wrong can we. - Carol

This looks like William's death reference... Deaths Jun 1884 (>99%) Winn William 33 Lambeth 1d 277 Georgina.

I've been looking for Williams death, I couldn't find it. Thanks Georgina - Carol

Yes, thats them Georgina. I think Rosina is shortend to Rose in the 1891 census you showed me earlier. And it seems like George E Winn, became just Edward in 1891 census. I have an awkward family don't I? - Carol

Carol I think I need to go to bed because I cant seem to find any other marriage for Eliza or Annie Winn to a Maddocks, it seems strange because she has the Maddocks children with her in 1901. I will check back tomorrow & see if anyone else has come up with anything. Georgina.

Yes, it is late, thanks for all your help. I don't understand why Eliza was Maddox in 1891, her daughters birth cert in 1892 says Mothers name Eliza Maddocks then in 1901 census she's back to using the name Winn. Strange relations I have, wish they could've made up their minds, things would be much easier. Goodnight - Carol

Hi Carol, I have been looking at the census info I found above & something seems wrong.... 1901 census... Annie Maddocks 8 Joseph H Maddocks 4 Willie Maddocks 11 Eliza Winn 15 Eliza A Winn 44 George E Winn 21 1891 census... Edward Maddox 11 Eliza Maddox 35 Joseph Maddox 42 Rose Maddox 14 Willie Maddox 1 1881 census... Eliza Winn 26 George Winn 1 Rasina Winn 4 William Winn 30 I cant find Edward in 1881 as a Maddocks.Maddox or a Winn, we found a possible death for William Winn but I cant see another marriage for Eliza Winn, can you just explain where the Hall name comes into the family? Georgina.