Genealogy Chat

OC Thanks again for your help My Parish Record info on these families is purely based on the IGI at the moment, and the Shapwick batch numbers. So hopefully the Registers themselves may be a bit more enlightening. The charges certainly sound more reasonable than I was imagining, so I will send them through an email today a see if they can copy and send those three collections through. With any luck they may just hold the answer!

Gosh, sorry Richard, I did notice the baptism records etc but assumed you had already found them! There are an awful lot of hits on A2A just using the word 'Shapwick' to search and there may be other stuff of interest if you work your way doggedly through all the hits. I would email the Somerset archives asking for the cost of these documents - they will only be photocopies after all, and how much can they charge for photocopies? I have never paid very much (Lancashire Records Office) for photocopies sent by post and sometimes nothing at all if it is a single sheet (they sent me an image). As a guide, the last Will I had from Lancs RO, eleven pages, was £4.00. That is about half the price of a cert, and it had 35 names on it! Interesting that you found more documents, as I thought you might - I am pretty sure that all of these archives have only indexed about a tenth of what they've really got! Of course you could wait till you visit the archives in person, but personally I wouldnt be able to wait if the cost is reasonable, and they may give you information which leads to another search when you DO visit. Good luck - I love this part of research, it is so exciting and satisfying when you finally tease out what seemed an impenetrable puzzle to start with. OC

OC I have visited the Somerset Records site and inputted the ref: RefNo: DD\BR\py/94 Title: Shapwick deed. Description: Lease for a year of land called Windmill Batch and a windmill there by Robert Westlake, senior, roper, and Robert his son, both of Moorlinch, to Richard Joanes of Shapwick, miller. Date: 1740 Extent: 1 Format :document Access Status: Open Didn't seem to be any more to the collection relating to Jones, just this one lease. I did however find two other collections relating to the other Jones' RefNo: DD\PAM/6 Title: Huntspill, Moorlinch, Woolavington deeds etc Description: Various small groups of land acquired by William Mogg. Copy will James Jones, Shapwick, yeoman, 1810. Date: 1777-1841 Extent: 24 Format :document Access Status: Open Though this obviously includes duplicates of the James Jones will I have already paid for, the dates 1777-1841 and the extent 24 pages suggests alot more to it There's also another smaller collection also for William Mogg, James Jones son in law, which includes his own will RefNo: DD\PAM/5 Title: Bridgwater, etc, deeds etc. Description: House in Castle Street, Bridgwater, c66a in Woolavington, 4a in Huntspill, c6a in Moorlinch, c3a in North Petherton. Deeds of 1811 and 1815 relate to moiety of the manor of St John Baptist, Bridgwater and North Petherton and property in Eastgate, Bridgwater including house rebuilt on site of the Bird in Hand Inn. Copy will William Mogg, Bridgwater, merchant, 1848. (Mogg, Ruscombe Poole). Date 1811-1887 Extent: 11 Format: documents AccessStatus: Open Probably worth checking out all three of these? Not having any experience how would you suggest I go about this OC. I'm assuming getting them to copy and send these docs, if even possible, will cost me an arm and a leg? I may be able to get to Somerset Records Office some time later this year, If I can wait that long! Would it be possible and easier to view them in person. I noticed another collection which has an index to Shapwick baptisms, 1700 -1884; marriages, 1703-1851; burials, 1700-1912, census returns, 1841-91; trade directories, 1859-1894; tithe award, 1839; and land tax records, etc. That could be useful to.

Thanks for that OC will give it a go!

Richard By getting the earlier document, you may be able to work forward and discover which William is which. Also, as I said, where there is one document, there are usually more, I find. To get the 1741 document you need to contact the holder of the document - I will just have a look and see what it says. It might also be worth you exploring the Manorial documents for the area, to see if the family were regular leaseholders - if they were, there may well be a will. Back in a mo! UPDATE - click on the link at the top of the page to Somerset Archives and Records and this will give you an email/contact addy to order the document (use the A2A reference number). You could ask at the same time if they hold any more documents for this family. OC

OC Thanks for that I was aware of one of them the 1781 Doc as it is up on http://www.somerset.gov.uk/archives/lists/ddlists/ddsbt.txt Lease and release of 14a near Kingweston Elm and Beggars Well (15a), Butleigh. (2 docs.) 13/1/24 1781  1] James Board of Ilchester, yeoman 2] Edward Talbot the elder of Butleigh, yeoman 3] John Jones of Shapwick, miller 4] James Grenville of Butleigh Not aware of the second, but does confirm what I already knew that the Jones family held two Mills the one in Shapwick and one in Moorlinch How would I go about getting acces to this document in full? Unfortunately it's unlikely to get me any nearer to knowing if my John Hockey Jones was the son of William the miller, or William the farmers son, but any background info on the families is worth looking into I suppose, never know what may be there.

Richard This might be useful: (and there may be more documents in the collection) 1740 - Deed - lease for one year of land called Windmill Batch and a windmill, to Richard JOANES, miller of Shapwick. and 1781 John Jones, Miller of Shapwick. (A2A - enter 'Shapwick + Miller' to find, nothing else) Also - the word which I thought must be MOIETY - could it possibly be MONITY? Only, there is a Manor in Shapwick called MONITY. OC

Thanks OC I will go down that route and see if anything turns up.

Richard I don't know where Shapwick is, sorry, but NONE of my family Wills come up on TNA. I have found most of mine in County Records Offices, or in the Diocesan papers. Remember that most land was once owned by the Church and tenant farmers' Wills would be dealt with in ecclesiastical courts. Have a look on the County Records website to see what they have. You could also try A2A - that has led me to quite a few wills, all in really obscure places, such as Solicitor's offices 500 miles from the area! OC

I have gone on NA to advances search and put in Jones, then shapwick in place name, and unfortunately that one will is the only one that it comes up with. After the elation of finding the will yesterday feeling utterly deflated now. That said it's not time or money wasted. Apart from the fact they are in all likelyhood related anyway, cousins etc, I'd rather know if the people I have on my tree are wrong than not know. I'm certain he is one of the two, just wish I knew which one!

I had an identical problem to this - two men with same name, cousins, born same year and same place. Both married women called Margaret - who died and both men then remarried to guess who, another pair of Margarets. They had virtually identical children. By looking at the burial register for both men, I got the additional, non transcribed information that one was a farmer. He had not left a Will, but his son and his wife had taken out an admon. This in turn led me to a three lives lease on the farm and hurray! My man was the third life, so it gave me HIS father and his grandfather. His grandfather had left a Will and that sorted out all the children and most of the grandchildren. Because of the Admon, the widow was moved to make a full and proper Will of her own, in which she named 37 relatives! Finally, after I had done all this, I discovered some transcribed monumental inscriptions, which proved what I had done and gave me a few more children who died young. I would think both a farmer and a miller would both have left wills, or admons and so would their ancestors. OC

If you go one generation back from the 2 Williams and find the deaths of the 2 fathers does it make it any clearer? Did either of THEM leave a Will? A man with property surely would?.....and might name children and grandchildren. Gwyn

I've hit a big problem with this! I always thought until now I had William correctly identified. I know 100% my 5xg grandfather was John Hockey Jones born 1803 Shapwick and his parents were William Jones and Elizabeth Hockey married same year. On the IGI there was only one christening for a William, the one above son of James and Mary b.1775 However following up on this will I've now found out there must have been two two marraiges: William Jones and Elizabeth Hockey 1803 William Jones and Elizabeth Winsor 1812 At first I just assumed he must have remarried, BUT horrror of horrors there's also two burials, both around same age: William JONES Date 26 May 1819 Aged 39 Place Shapwick Description Blessed Virgin Mary (b year 1779/80) William JONES Date 3 Dec 1836 Aged 57 Place Shapwick Description Blessed Virgin Mary (b year 1778/9) I've had a dig around on the net and the second one was fatally injured, killed by a gale which all but destroyed the family mill in 1836. His wife Elizabeth or Betty is on the 1841-61 census widowed as a Miller. Apparantly the Mill was in the Jones family from at least early 18th c. First Richard Jones, then handed down to son John Jones (who owned it 1781), then presumably to his son William. This makes me think the first burial 1819 is the William in the will, son of James the Yeoman farmer. Now I have no way of knowing which is my John Hockey Jones father. I am however getting the horrible feeling it may have been the second William, the miller, as if John was his father would make sense he would name his first born son John. This would presumably mean the will above is nothing to do with my relatives after all! Been racking my brains trying to think of a way to find out which is which. Any ideas?

OC your right on both of those. It clearly is Moiety, I'd never. heard the term before not being up on those sort of things. Also thanks for the offer Alison, though I think I have it mostly sussed now, just place names having difficulty with but will try again now this morning, with rested eyes!

It is Tallow Chandler I expect - made and sold tallow soap and candles. 'Monety' is almost certainly 'Moiety' which means a portion or share, usually a half or larger.(Of land or property) It was fairly usual to leave money to a married daughter's husband, women being silly creatures who couldnt be trusted with money. OC.

Hi Richard, Well done on finding the Will. I myself have recently found 3 wills of relatives on the National Archives and was equally excited. Especially when one gave me information on 3 children I didn't know about. I was able to transcribe a fair amount myself, but with the help of some lovely ladies on here, I was able to complete the transcription of the words I couldn't read. So if you would like a fresh pair of eyes to look over your will and see if I can make out any words that you can't, then feel free to contact me. I'm happy to take a look for you, can't promise I can complete your transcription for you, but am happy to try just as others have done for me. Regards, Alison

Name of the Legitee : William Mogg (son in law) Particulars of the several specific legacies bequest in the trust - and of the residue: My Monity? Estate Right and interest in a close of land in ? Hill the posession of R...? where of I gave him on his marraige with my daur Jane Jones See, her hubby got Janes share!

'Well done you. And Wills are lovely to get arent they - make people so real to you' Certainly do. Before this was really just names on a page, great to be able to put some flesh to the bones. Thanks for the help. I will try trusty old google. There was another thing wasn't to sure of the 'Tallow Chaider' though I expect it probably is just another name for soap making. Tallow is beef fat if I remmber rightly, riots in India years ago when McDonalds turned out to be frying their chips in the stuff? Will pop off and look it up anyway Thanks again!

If you are ever stuck for the meaning of words - like the sizes of land mentioned above - close wasnt it? or Executor/trix - always enter a google search - it has virtually anything you can think of. Well done you. And Wills are lovely to get arent they - make people so real to you.

From a google search, not a definitive measure unfortunately: Close (Latin clausura.) A piece of land enclosed by a hedge. .