Genealogy Chat

Thanks for that hint, Elizabeth. I'll see what I can find! Ta xx

That sounds a brilliant publication. Cornwall and some other counties seem to be so on the ball and have done so many useful publications. Wish they were all like that.

For Apprenticeship records it might be worth contacting the local family history society. The reason I say this is that I have in my possession an APPRENTICES' INDEX for CORNWALL which is a Cornwall Family History Society Publication. My mother bought it when she was researching our Quintrell branch. It is alphabetical with dates and references.

Lynne: I've emailed Wolverhampton archives (as Shropshire tell me them have nothing) - Fingers crossed!!

HI guys, I was told by a family member who's also been researching the same thing that Edward was born in the Poorhouse in Wellington but I don't know if this person has any proof as when I ask them for something they never answer me! Lynne: Thanks for that IGI batch code - I'll trawl through them! xx

Bit puzzled here - how do you know he was born in the workhouse, then? Or was from the workhouse? OC

xx

Unfortunatley Edwards marriage cert doesn't help as there are no parents mentioned. In order to search Workhouse or Poorhouse records I would need to contact Shropshire or Wolverhampton, right? There's no one central database? (Wouldn't that make life easier?) The trouble is, until I find about more info about Edward's eariler life and mother, there's no way I can go back any further!! I just need something! This can get sooo frustrating, can't it?

Amokavid Not doubting your word at all. York (and one or two other places) did go in for freemen. York still does as you know. As stated my ancestors lived in the Ainsty area but did not have York apprenticeships but did have apprenticeships. A century later my two brothers had apprenticeships but did not go on to become guild members. My cousin failed to gain the education qualifications for an apprenticeship but did go on to become a (London) guild member. Snooty? Yes London has guild members still who are (I believe) freemen of London. Where else do people get there other than by the political course? Clive

Wow guys! I've just got back to this thread after a night out (lol). Firstly, yes you're right. On the 1851 census, Edward was living with the Bullock family and I never paid that much attention to the Deaf/Blind or dumb box - Jeez it's ticked!!!! There are a lot of miners on the same page who also have it ticked. And on the 1861 census it's not ticked. Ok, so now I'm confused! Secondly, how do I go about searching for a paupers apprenticeship again? Edward was apparently born in Wellington Poorhouse, but Shropshire archives have no record of him or his mother at all. Thirdly, yes, that curious fox message is from a distant cousin of mine who has also been trying to research the same thing. xx

Lynne Quite likely. It was routine practice to hire out the inhabitants of the workhouse, both children (from the age of THREE) and adults. Children often went out as pauper apprentices. No money changed hands, mostly, although occasionally it did, if it was a proper apprenticeship, such as tailoring, etc. But Ratepayers of the area were entitled to use the Workhouse inhabitants as free labour - they had, after all, already contributed towards their keep. OC

Clive Yes, I realised you were talking about proper apprenticeships, but I had already decided we were talking about a pauper's apprenticeship in this case, as he was so young AND I have never heard of Coal Miners needing an apprenticeship! Never heard of a Master Coalminer either, or a Journeyman Coal Miner. OC

OC I was actually talking about proper apprenticeships. The poor house ones were a racket and like you say went on for years. At least those who were sent abroad were free at the age of eighteen. I do not think for one moment that a pauper's apprenticeship would have qualified you for guild membership. Clive

Is this curious fox query anything to do with your lot? Just a wild chance. (right area/birth year) Edward and Caroline Clayton - Eve Hill looking for information on Edward Clayton (1829-1908)and Caroline Bowater(1833-1903), they married in 1853 at All Saints Church,Sedgley. They had 12 children, John Bowater, Edward married Ruth Lowe and lived in Gornal,Elizabeth married Ezekiel Round and lived in Wednesbury, Rosannah married William Hobbs,James married Caroline Hicklin,Caroline(died young), William(died young), Mary Ann(died young), Joseph married Phoebe Bowater, Mary Ann married Edward Fleming, Ellen married Ambrose Hickinbottom and William married Lily Woodall, the family were living at 9 Court 53 House, Eve Hill,Dudley from 1861 census up till 1901 census.

But the 1841 didnt have the facility to tick for disabilities? LOL - curiouser and curiouser .......

Yes, like Heather, I have my doubts as to whether these were 'proper' apprenticeships, but they are carefully recorded, as Heather says, with the name, age, master's name - and the cost of the apprenticeship. More in the spirit of account-keeping, than recording of an apprenticeship, I grant you, but still useful. OC

Sorry Clive, do you mean my mattress maker? I can assure you the workhouse had apprenticed him to a master mattress maker - LOL and gave the date and the master's name. Whether this was a 'proper' indenture is another matter - much more as O.C. says, cheap labour but then again, they did learn a trade. This young chap turned up in later census as an upholsterer.

Clive I have seen countless recordings of Pauper Apprenticeships, in Workhouse and Poorhouse records. Of course, the pauper apprenticeship was really another name for sweated labour. These 'apprenticeships' went on for 14 years, instead of the customary seven years, and a pauper apprentice could not gain his indentures before the age of 25, as opposed to the age of 21 for an 'ordinary' apprentice. OC

I am doubful about apprenticeships being registered as quoted above. In places like York (snooty) it was a requirement if you wanted later to be a freeman - and to trade within the city limits without having to make a payment. (The guilds like nice dinners and who better to pay for them than some jumped up tradesman?) My ancestors were in Ainsty (sort of covered York too but also covered neighbouring parishes) and they did not register their apprenticeships in York. Clive

Well done. As I said Joseph could be the couples son as if their ages have been rounded down - they could be 29 so 18 when Joe was born??? Have you tried googling for the name and workhouses. I did this for one of mine in the area he was living/born and found a record concerning him being apprenticed to a mattress maker! Have a go - just in case something does come up for him, in Wellington or Wolverhampton. Does that other Clayton family living near him - as above - shed any light I wonder? Yes a real mystery. Does his marriage cert not help?