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SylviaInCanada,
Hindsight it something we have that is a luxury often too late, and often causes only guilt that we didn’t ask.
My reply was only specifically related to Catholic Baptism, I am also CofE,.
If the church name is on your certificate, contact them, it has to be worth a try. With you in Canada, that’s the glory of the WWW and email. If the church is on your certificate, give it a try.
Another thing I would do is contact the CRO in the County you lived in before emigrating. You may be surprised as they may have digitised some records the hold. it has to be worth a message.
For example, I knew the approximate age of several Ancestors in our tree that were COE. I accessed the online County BMD records and got most of their Baptism dates that referenced their d.o.b., A lot of marriage dates, and best of all they were in a digitised view as if you were looking at the page of the Parish register for that event. Best of all I could download and save the image to my PC to include in my Family Tree software.
None of the above is guaranteed to your County, but worth a try.
Anyway I hope that’s been helpful. I’m off to bed.
There are far more online records available than any of us know. For example I used to travel to the Matlock CRO, who are the Archives for Derbyshire. Only a few months ago I rang to book a Microfiche reader in the search room. They told me that Derbyshire BMD records they have are digitised and available online through Ancestry.
would contact the church
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Hi Peter ..........
The CofE usually has 2 godfathers and 1 godmother for males, and 2 godmothers and 1 godfather for females, but 2 or more than 3 seem to be acceptable. For example, Prince Louis had 6 godparents.
My daughter was baptised in the Anglican church (=CofE) over here and only has 2 godparents (1 male and 1 female) because the vicar objected to our other choice for godmother as her surname showed that she was Jewish, lapsed and non-practising for many years, but still unacceptable to him. Luckily she took the news well, we remained close friends, and she became "honorary godmother" when my daughter turned 21 :-)
There is now no-one left alive who knew my parents back when I was born, and I no longer live in the UK, so it is one of those little mysteries in my life that will always remain a mystery, filed under "why didn't I ask my parents or brother before they died"!
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SylvilnCanada
If you do pick up on this thread, and just reading your reply to me I can just say.
All of our children were Baptised into the Catholic faith, and we only ever had two. Since I have been trying to get the information I would like, I have read that three can be “sponsors”.
However just looking at a Canon Law article about certain points it goes into quite specific detail about who can act as Sponsors i.e. God Parents.
One particular point you talk about is the certificate not mentioning Godparents names.
Reading an extract I just have under Canon Law - Canon 874.2 talks about who can stand as a Sponsor at a Catholic Baptism. I will only put in my words and very briefly, so as not to breach any copyright rules.
Basically, C L permits the Parents of an infant to choose a Catholic & Non Catholic Christian as godparents in the ceremony. But in the paris’s baptismal register, only the Catholic is recorded as the official Sponsor. The non catholic will only be mentioned as a witness, but maybe not at all.
The names are not on a Certificate at all. Bet may be in the Baptism register completed for the child.
Similar to my Predicament, albeit different information wanted.
I would be interested if you do get information provided to you, or success stories for Catholic records. Especially years between 1950s to 1970’s.
I hope this answers your query you mentioned.
Even though it me I hoped would have got somewhere after more than 8 months. I’m (only joking
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Peter - there are no Welsh and only one decent collection of English RC regusters online, and that is from Liverpool diocese on Ancestry.
The situation for the rest of the UK is quite different, although of course the Scottish records are thru SP so they're not free.
Spdoid list the missions they have registers from one bishopric that might be of wider interest, namely the Bishopric of the Forces, see:
https://web.archive.org/web/20091123010314/http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk:80/content/images/ScotlandsPeople%20CPR%20Missions.pdf
There are some isolated RC churches that have theur records online.
Although non-conformists (except jews and quakers) could not keep official marr rego's until 1898. when they could apply to be approved to hold them, the RCs chose not to apply until 1980-ish.
This didn't prevent them from keeping their own marr rego's however. and these rego's can differ from the official rego's.
The most likely difference is the Latinization of names of people, and sometimes places, but they can show other differences, e.g., name both parents.
Consider the marr of my wife's gg grandparents:
Marriages Jun 1838 (>99%)
ASPINALL Margaret Wigan 21 448
McCANN George Wigan 21 448
plus 2 other people
Some local indexes are online - see"
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd
In particular:
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1838
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
MCCANN George ASPINALL Margaret Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/1/50
and George's brother:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1840
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
MCCANN Patrick HEATON Hannah Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/1/144
There is a transcription for these at:
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
Marriage: 23 Jun 1838 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
[unnamed] McCann -
[unnamed] Aspinall -
Groom's Parents: Samuelis McCann, civitatis Wigan & Brigittae
Bride's Parents: Jacobi Aspinall, [of Wigan] & Mariae
Witness: Patricio McArdal, [of Wigan]; Esther Jackson, [of Wigan]
Married by: Hen. Segrave Miss. Apos.
Notes: [Bride's and groom's names not recorded. Here their surnames are taken from
their parents]
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1840, Page 40
Source: Original register at LRO
Marriage: 7 Jan 1840 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Patricium McCann -
Hannam Heaton -
Groom's Parents: Samuelis McCann, de Drogheda in Hibernia & Bergittae
Bride's Parents: Danielis Heaton, de Comtu. Carloviensi in Hibernia & Hannae
Witness: Edwardo Diamond; Birgitta Smith
Married by: T. Dilworth M.A.
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1840, Page 53
Source: Original register at LRO
[Comtu. Carloviensi in Hibernia is, I presume, Co Carlow in Ireland]
There are a couple of things I learned from these records which I wouldn't have learned from the official m.cert.
Firstly, Geo's mum was Bridget, and secondly, that they came from Drogheda.
Drogheda is abt 50km N of Dublin and is the lowest bridging point of the R Boyne, which also forms the Meath/Louth county boundary, so most of Drogheda is in Co Louth, but the southern portion is in Co Meath.
Since RCs weren't approved to keep official marr rego's, a registrar (or more probably, an assistant registrar) woould need to attend the church ceremony with an official rego for the couple (and everyone else) to sign to complete the ceremony.
The official m.cert would name the church in the header panel of the cert, the names of the couple and their fathers would be in English, the couple, the witnesses and the priest would all sign the m,rego, and then the registrar would sign the entry
If you're not familiar with the 3 basic GRO certs, there are annotated examples at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/family-tree-guide-to-birth-certificates
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/family-tree-guide-to-marriage-certificates
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/family-tree-guide-to-death-certificates
The only other point of caution here is with the Latinization.
Here are the two problematical names:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1840
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
RIGBY James BIBBY Ann Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/1/154
BULLEN William FISHWICK Alice Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/1/162
Marriage: 18 May 1840 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Jacobum Rigby -
Annam Bibbey - etc
Marriage: 14 Jul 1840 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Gulielmum Bullen -
Aliciam Fishwick - etc
The French version of William is Guillaume - it's pronounced similar to the Welsh Gwilym.
The other somewhat confusing aspect of Latin are the noun case endings.
Although these were present in Anglo-Saxon (and modern German) they have almost vanished from modern English - only one remains (the apostrophe S for the genitive/possessive case).
However, the cases still exist - they might not be reflected in endings to mgnv as a noun but there are variations as a pronoun, viz: I, me, my, mine, myself.
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Peter ..............
for whatever reason, the Catholic church seems to have been far less willing to let their records be digitised than the CofE, or even some other non-conformaist, such as the Quakers.
One reason originally was that it was the Mormon Church that was collecting records, and the Catholics apparently flatly refused to let them have any of the records.
But just to make you perhaps feel less upset ............... it is just as difficult to get baptismal records for the CofE. I have seen several requests on thsi site and others where I help from people complaining that they cannot find out their godparents because the baptismal records do not seem to be available from the CofE church they KNOW they were baptised at.
So it is not just you!
I have my baptismal certificate somewhere.
It does NOT name my godparents. I know that my maternal aunt and uncle were 2, but I have no idea who the third was, or even if I had a 3rd godparent, as was usual in the CofE. I have no memory of either of my parents nor of my much older brother ever mentioning a 3rd person
The certificate just states that I was baptised into the church.
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Thank you both for your replies. To reply to you individually in this message I will use your screen name.
Eringobragh1916.
I do know the specific chuch concerned and after all of the emails, telephone calls ana my letter with S.A.E. handed to the Priest in Residence for the RC church, I made what I thought was going to be another futile call last week to the Parish Office. When I kept asking and querying, the Priest happened to be in earshot of the call, and told the secretary that they only had another enquiry “last week” they quckly identified for that one that the records after 1969. All others have been deposited, but he couldn’t say where
Needless to say I am disappointed I didn’t get a reply telling me that much sooner.
I have spoken separately after finding out on my own, that there is the Nottingham Diocesan Archives, and among others cover Derbyshire. After speaking with their Assistant Archivist by telephone, he asked me to write and request the information I am looking for.
We married in a different RC church in Chesterfield, but I did make that clear throughout my enquiries as we married years after that date. I will follow that up with a call on Monday Morning to their office.
mgnv
I have a different address which is specifically c to the Catholic Archives in Nottingham, as I briefly mentioned to Eringobragh1916. I am in the process of writing to them, and after speaking to there Assistant Archivist, and bearing in mind he received my call out of the blue, as I never spoke to him before, without any hesitation he suggested I write to request the information I am asking for.
N.B. I will certainly keep the contact information in mind.
Comment in general
With the age of technology and information easily available online of Church of England records, including that of Births Marriages and deaths for Derbyshire, held by the County Records Office.
This has been my personal experience in asking a simple straightforward questions for one individual, regardless the fact that to me she was such a special person.
Thank you both again for taking the time to reply.
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I don't know, but I think it's likely they are archived with the diocese - at least the diocese would know where the records were.
There's a map showing English/Welsh dioceses at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_dioceses_in_Great_Britain#/media/File:English_and_Welsh_Catholic_Dioceses_Map.png
In your case, the contact details are:
Contact the Diocese
Bishop's House, 27 Cavendish Road East, The Park, Nottingham, NG7 1BB
0115 947 4786
[email protected]
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Peter.
Catholic Records for the time frame you have given will be in most cases still be held by the Church. Although Cannon Law stated RC Records should not be deposited with the General Archives but in RC Repositories many Churches have deposited their records in the local archives but only up to a certain date.
I am surprised you have not have any response to your enquiry and I would be following it up with a phone call if only to determine where the records may be held if not in the church.
If you know the School your late wife (RIP) went to then that may give an indication as to the Church she attended and where she made her 1st Holy Communion also the Church (if that was the case) where you married should have details of her Baptism in the Marriage Register but only if it was not "her Church" eg not Baptised there.
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I am trying to find out where I can locate Catholic records of Births, Baptism, 1st Holy Communion dates for Family and Ancestors.
I am talking about the 1950 & 1960s in this instance.
My understanding is that, although Church of England records are generally awailabe by looking through a Church Parish record book of Births, Marriages or Burials, at a County Record Office, or at the Church if the register is in use.
I don’t think Catholic records are deposited in the same way, and generally are held in the church/Parish concerned, until the register is full and a new one is started.
What happens after that is what I need to know, to help me get the information I need for our family tree.
To give an example.
My wife sadly passed away 18 months ago, so knowing her full name including maiden name, date and place of birth. I wrote to the Catholic Church in our area. At that time all I needed was to find out her Baptism, the date of her 1st Holy Communion, when she was confirmed, and the place or places that they took place. As her confirmation may have been in a Cathedral e.g. at that time St Barnabas in Nottingham.
It was about 8 months ago that I sent my first email. Since then further emails, telephone calls to the Parish office, and over 3 months ago, I took a letter from me with a self addressed envelope, and hand delivered it to the Parish Priest.
I live in Chesterfield in Derbyshie.
I hope members have had experience of finding out records of their Catholic relations and Ancestors Can I please ask for your advice in who I can get the information from.
Perhaps their is an equivalent repository that stores registers, as in my case for the area I live.
I had heard about a Catholic Archives in Nottingham, but I have no other knowledge.
Has anyone used that archives with success ?
What information would be needed from me ?
Thank you
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