Genealogy Chat

Paul - RE
"Ah I've found her name on the registration of births for April, May, June 1924
It has her mother's maiden name as Foster. It doesn't mention the father. It is page 79 of the register so I'm guessing it was around April. Still struggling to find her baptism details."

Looks like some mistakes in methodology there.
Firstly, one can't tell from the index whether the father's mentioned or not.
He could be named as Albert (or whatever) Atherton, or the Atherton could come from the widowed mum's married name.
It seems clear that it's the former case that holds here.

Secondly, I presume you determined 1924q2 births for Wigan RD took up pages 1-295, and said 79/295=30%, so 30% of quarter would mean a mid-April birth (allowing for a week's worth of March birth registrations.
Well, it's true the births are ordered by date of registration, since they're copies made for the GRO of the original registers.
But after each subdistrict registrar's copies are turned in to the district superintendent, neither he nor the GRO reorders the things.
So a birth on the 47th of 65 Hindley pages could appear as page 47 of 295 (if Hindley were the first subdistrict) or as page 277 of 295 (if Hindley were the eighth subdistrict).
Although you could apply your methodology to just the Hindley returns, and get 47/65 = 72% of way thru quarter, i.e., a late May d.o.b., we can be a bit more precise here since ook care to find the first entry on the first Hindley page, and the last entry on the last page, eo we find we're after entry 228 of 321 for the quarter, i.e., 228/321 = 70%.

Here are some FreeBMD hits with the local ref appended:
Births Jun 1924 (>99%)
Haywood Dorothy Mather Wigan 8c 1 STND/51/63
Wilkins Nellie Taylor Wigan 8c 13 STND/51/121
[page 14 is blank]
Haydock James Taylor Wigan 8c 15 ASPL/73/29
Miller May Latham Wigan 8c 31 ASPL/73/106
[page 32 is blank]
Ramsdale Robert H Ramsdale Wigan 8c 33 HNDL/217/490
Atherton Marian Foster Wigan 8c 79 HNDL/218/217
Halliwell Robert Bache Wigan 8c 97 HNDL/218/310
[page 98 is blank]
HOLLAND Douglas E ROBERTS Wigan 8c 99 WIG(E)/4/185
Marrow Freda M Baldwin Wigan 8c 139 WIG(E)/4/384
[page 140 is blank]
HODGSON William F BENNETT Wigan 8c 141 WIG(C)/4/113
Havard Joseph O'Neil Wigan 8c 183 WIG(C)/4/322
[page 184 is blank]
White Leonard Houghton Wigan 8c 185 WIG(W)/4A/104
HILL Marian HEYES Wigan 8c 214 WIG(W)/4A/242
[page 215 is blank]
Winstanley Sarah Knowles Wigan 8c 216 ORRL/5/147
Marsh May Tinsley Wigan 8c 233 ORRL/5/235
[page 234 is blank]
HOWARTH Kenneth WOOD Wigan 8c 235 ASHT/77/128
Wildman John Martland Wigan 8c 259 ASHT/77/246

Consider the 3 local refs:
HNDL/217/490, HNDL/218/217, HNDL/218/310
The first is entry 490 from rego # 217 - there are 500 entries in B & D rego's, so there are 11 1924q2 entries in this rego, and they continue thru entry 310 of rego # 218.
Rego's were usually numbered sequentially within a series, such as Hindley births, Standish deaths, St John's Pemberton marrs, etc.

As a footnote, what I presume is your methodology would work if the Registration District had just one subdistrict - tn 1911this was the case for just one of Lancs 30 RDs, viz Barrow-in-Furness.

Pemberton is 3km W of Wigan, Hindley is 4km E of Wigan (although the subdistrict included most of Ince, so was closer to Wigan).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1930
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ATHERTON Esther EVANS Edward Primitive Methodist Church, Woodford St.Lamberhead Green Wigan & Leigh A5W/3/5

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1944
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ATHERTON Marian BOWLES Albert Primitive Methodist Church, Woodford St.Lamberhead Green Wigan & Leigh A5W/4/20

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

I don't see why you can't click on the above URLs and then click on the image link on your home computor, but anyways.
If you get the image at the library, there's a download button in the image header bar.
Clicking on this downloads the image to the Downloads folder in My Documents, and you can then email them from the library to yourself.
If you've got a lot of images to download, then the following is useful.

Click on Start button in bottom left, then on My Documents.
You can then highlight a group of 10 files, right-click, and send to a compressed (zipped) folder - it's much easier to mail 2 zipped folders to yourself than 20 images.

If your library has an Ancestry sub, then the following is useful.
My library has an Ancestry sub, but limits all computer usage to 2 one-hour sessions per day - I find it's not really long enough to fully comprehend the data I can get from images, which is why I always send myself copies.
Click on Start button in bottom left, then on All Programs, then Accessories, then double-click on Notepad.
This opens a notepad document - you can copy and paste stuff into it, and type notes - it's a very crude word-processor.
Once you've got something in it, pick File - Save As, and name the file Notes_2016-02-23.txt or something appropriate.
Thereafter, you can just pick File - Save to keep it updated. Email this file to yourself too.

Copy and paste of SA records on FS The large numbers refer to the number of records. The date is the last time they were up-dated.

BillionGraves Index 27,908 26 Jan 2016
[Images are at a partner site] - https://billiongraves.com/

Find A Grave Index 54,043 15 Dec 2015
[Images are at a partner site] - http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gs&

South Africa, Cape Province, Civil Deaths, 1895-1972 103,574 21 Sep 2015 [Images on FamilySearch]

South Africa, Church of the Province of South Africa, Parish Registers, 1801-2004 389,387 06 Nov 2014 [Images on FamilySearch]

South Africa, Dutch Reformed Church Registers (Cape Town Archives), 1660-1970 220,122 25 Jan 2013 [Images on FamilySearch]

South Africa, Free State Dutch Reformed Church Records, 1848-1956 46,522 19 Mar 2015 [Images on FamilySearch]

South Africa, Methodist Parish Registers, 1822-1996 63,475 09 Dec 2013 [Images on FamilySearch]

South Africa, Natal Province, Civil Marriages, 1845-1955 210,566 11 Jul 2013 [Images on FamilySearch]

South Africa, Netherdutch Reformed Church Registers (Pretoria Archive), 1838-1991 48,422 03 Feb 2016 [Images on FamilySearch]

South Africa, Orange Free State, Estate Files, 1951-2006 62,162 17 Apr 2015 [Images on FamilySearch]

As long as the Library has internet access (which they normally do) you will be able to sign in to GR.

Thanks for the technical advice and all the trouble you went to summarising the important facts from Family search

I know nothing about browsers .
.really need a new computer this one flickers

If I access genes Reunited from library maybe i will be able to see these images
ps does family search cover south africa too

Nearly all these FS URLs link to images



I really think you ought to download another browser, even if you only use it to access FS.
To be without FS for US research will really hamstring you.

Using various collections at:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_STATES

1900 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSV9-58H
Event Place Borough of Manhattan, Election District 16 New York City Ward 8, New York County, New York, United States
David Rotmer Head M 48 Russia
Lena Rotmer Daughter F 22 Russia
Morris Rotmer Son M 19 Russia
Alleis Rotmer Son M 16 Russia
Sallie Rotmer Daughter F 14 Russia
Sarah Rotmer Daughter F 12 Russia

1910 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M54D-SVC
Event Place Brooklyn Ward 26, Kings, New York, United States
Morris Ratner Head M 32 Russia
Gussie Ratner Wife F 29 Russia
Bertha Ratner Daughter F 6 New York
Mary Ratner Daughter F 5 New York
Bella Ratner Daughter F 4 New York
Aaron Ratner Son M 2 New York
[Store proprietor]

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M54R-SWQ
[Morris is a dentist]

NJ1915 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV97-D9VY

1920 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MJRV-C1T
[Morris is a jobber]

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MV38-R3J
[addy = 56 Washington St]
[Morris is a doctor working in the dentist industry.
Lena is living with him, so this is the right Morris & Gussie]

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MV34-YZ9
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M4TK-4R7

1930 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4GN-3WL
Morris Ratner Head M 48 Russia -[Moscow]
Gussie S Ratner Wife F 40 New York
Elinor Ratner Daughter F 12 New York
Janet M Ratner Daughter F 3 New York

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4P6-TMX
Lena T Fellman Head F 55 Russia
Matilda T Fellman Daughter F 25 New York

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4XG-FP5

1940 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K4TQ-M4V
Charles I Silk Head M 66 Hungary
Celeia Silk Wife F 54 Russia

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K4T3-53F
United States Census, 1940
District 12-98
Sheet Number and Letter 13B
Line Number 56
Affiliate Publication Number T627
Affiliate Film Number 2361
Digital Folder Number 005462099
Image Number 00242


https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F6QK-DKL
Name Bernard Fellman
Spouse's Name Lena Ratner
Event Date Jun 1902
Event Place Manhattan, New York, New York
Father's Name Lazer Fellman
Mother's Name Cheine Landman
Spouse's Father's Name David Ratner
Spouse's Mother's Name Sarah Levin

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2444-K4S
Name Charles Isidor Silk
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 22 Sep 1912
Event Place Bronx, New York, New York, United States
Gender Male
Age 38
Birth Year (Estimated) 1874
Father's Name Samuel
Mother's Name Kathrine Troustren
Spouse's Name Cecelia Ratner
Spouse's Gender Female
Spouse's Age 27
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1885
Spouse's Father's Name David
Spouse's Mother's Name Tillie







https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J614-PYD
Given Name David
Surname Rattner
Event Date 14 Nov 1893
Age 43y
Nationality Russia
Departure Port Bremen
Arrival Port New York
Gender Male
Marital Status M
Ship Name Weimar
[The link is to the Ellis Is site - we want their image # 821]
David Rattner 43 labourer
Chassa Rattner 40
Moses Rattner 11
Elia Rattner 9
Lube Rattner 20
Zivie Rattner 8
Sara Rattner 7
[FS transcription of names - it's possible Chassa is Lube's step-mother]
You want to follow the path:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/2386295?collectionNameFilter=false
New York Passenger Arriva...(Ellis Island), 1891-1924
Browse through 3,243,611 images
Roll 620, 19 Oct 1893-14 Nov 1893
Image 824 of 860



https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VZPJ-D6S [d 1980]

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KXB2-DQJ
[I read n.o.k. as Mrs Gussie Ratner]

Master - in this instance where you keep information or links all in one place. Particularly important on GR as 'My Threads' is playing up. That makes it difficult to find all of the threads you've stared or added to.

An URL is a web address, linking to another site or page. A more knowledgeable deffinition is " URL is an acronym for Uniform Resource Locator and is a reference (an address) to a resource on the Internet."
You added one earlier. Clicking on it opens up the link in a new tab.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1345669?page=1

Most of the time they appear in blue type.
If you were to suggest some one looks on www.freebmd.org.uk they'd have to copy or type that into the browser bar.
On the other hand the URL http://www.freebmd.org.uk/ taks them straight there,

An URL is a web address - they're in green below

All these graves have very similar plot #s

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=96181155
Sadie Ratner
Birth: unknown
Death: Jan. 14, 1965
Inscription:
Aged 76 Years
Burial:
Mount Carmel Cemetery
Glendale
Queens County
New York, USA
Plot: 2-10-13-573-3
Find A Grave Memorial# 96181155

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=96181333
Morris Ratner
Birth: Jul. 20, 1882
Death: Sep. 23, 1974
Note: Neshwesser Y M #2
Burial:
Mount Carmel Cemetery
Glendale
Queens County
New York, USA
Plot: 2-10-13-573-6
Find A Grave Memorial# 96181333

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=96181564
Augusta Ratner
Birth: Feb. 23, 1889
Death: Mar. 7, 1992
Burial:
Mount Carmel Cemetery
Glendale
Queens County
New York, USA
Plot: 2-10-13-573-7
Find A Grave Memorial# 96181564

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=96180458
David Ratner
Death: Dec. 13, 1934
Note: Neshwesser Y M #2
Burial:
Mount Carmel Cemetery
Glendale
Queens County
New York, USA
Plot: 2-10-13-573-4
Find A Grave Memorial# 96180458

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=96165017
Eleanor Stamm
Birth: unknown [image says 13/1/1918]
Death: May 22, 2003
Burial:
Mount Carmel Cemetery
Glendale
Queens County
New York, USA
Plot: 2-10-13-573-8
Find A Grave Memorial# 96165017


http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=95991385
Lena Fellman
Birth: unknown
Death: Dec. 28, 1966
Burial:
Mount Carmel Cemetery
Glendale
Queens County
New York, USA
Find A Grave Memorial# 95991385

Using http://www.mountcarmelcemetery.com/search.asp
Search Results - Showing all 1 matches.
Last Name, First Name Location Society Date of Death
FELLMAN, LENA 2-10-13-573-2 12/28/1966

whats a master = whats a URL ?

I sometimes start off on a general subject then it overlaps into research into the same family . should it be on Find ancestors page or Geanealogy chat

Iif you're using that as your 'master' it would be quite a good idea. Remember to date the additional bits & link with the relevant URL.

I don't think that Tilly was connected

We have traced 8 of G-Jacob Fellman's 11 Russian -Latvian born siblings
2 died in Russia
1 in Scotland
5 in USA

George died in Wales

The missing 3 are one elder sibling b around 1869

+ 2 others born between 1873 and 1879 the years missing from Jacobstadt records but as we dont know their names unlikely to find them .without a few more lucky coincidences .

I've followed 2 half sisters from birth in Latvia +manchester to USA marriages + Deaths

lost trace of manchester born Gertrude Fellman after 1910 aged 15 due to disrepancies in name + age
and I'm not sure if her birth name was Goldie or Taube
in Manchester school she was Golda on the ship Gerty who knows what her 1st name was in later life + if she married

should I put a summary of findings so far at the top my threads on naturalisation ?

Your & Allisoun's research lines are so extensive, TBH I've lost the plot!

Has further research already been made on Matilda (Tilly) Fellman c1916, or is she a new target? Edit - having scanned the first couple of posts on the linked thread, you've discovered she died unwed.

Possible the best course of action would be to contact all relevant tree owners on Ancestry or elsewhere to see if they have one tucked away. You can take out a 14 day trial on Ancestry. Just remember to phone to cancel a few days before the time is up. If you don't, they'll charge your CC/DC.

Thanks so much Det. I've edited my post so it's clear that its Matilda Fellman 's photo I'm looking for

I don't know if Matilda knew any of her paternal cousins ;
Her father Benjamen was a crucial link in me sorting out which were the correct Fellmans coming over from England in the early 1900's


sister Bessie Fellman aged 20 in oct 1904

brother David aged 24 dec 1904

and his father Samuel step mother + half siblings In 1905

All gave Bern/Barnet/barius Fellman + the 478 myrtle av address as NY destination

My sister Alisoun has very long thread about the search for nana 's birth parents and another about the naturalization of our Russian great grandfather

I have a thread about the Fellman's who came over on the boats ;

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1345669?page=1




.

Sending photos of Janet Ratner, David & Augusta Ratner & Eleanor Ratner Stamm
Janet's is a 1948 year book at Syrcacuse Uni. The others are from a tree on Ancestry.

Thanks detective

My mum has just visited and is very pleased to know about her previosly unknown cousin Matilda Fellman + joins me in thanking you all for all your help.



Floriculturist is an interesting possibility

It would be nice if we could find a photo EDIT of Matilda FELLMAN
for family resemblance

The Ratners are an interesting Family but a diversion for me as I'm supposed to be tracing my nana's blood line .

Is this relevant for Sadie? There are quite a few Sadie Ratners around!

Sadie Ratner
U.S., Social Security Death Index, 1935-2014

Sadie Ratner
SSN: 053-03-1559
Last Residence:
11238 Brooklyn, Kings, New York, USA
BORN: 30 May 1888
Died: Apr 1974
State (Year) SSN issued: New York (Before 1951)

Findagrave has her death/burial as
Birth: unknown
Death: Feb. 23, 1974
Burial:
Montefiore Cemetery
Springfield Gardens
Queens County
New York, USA

http://tiny.cc/9zeb9x

1925
Sadie Ratner
Birth Date: abt 1888
Birth Place: Russia
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Residence Place: Rye, Westchester
Relationship: Sister
Colour or Race: White
Number of Years in US: 32
Assembly District: 02
House Number: 59
Line Number: 33
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Chas I Silk 51
Ecolia R Silk 38
Sadie Ratner 37

Looking at the 1925 NY census Sadie Ratner & Matilda Fellman’s occupation certainly ends ‘culturist’. The h at the beginning of housework (Lena Fellman) isn’t the same as the letter at the beginning of theirs. It could be Floraculturist ie growing flowers?

For those who don’t have access to the image…..The reason that Lena and her daughter Matilda aren’t included in the transcription is that Lena Fellman – 48, Russia – although living at the same address, is described as the head of her household.

horticulturist?

clocks would be horoligst

A very kind person sent me copies of original censuses lovely to peruse

raised a couple more questions tho

Just wondered if Sadie + Matilda's profession in 1925 was actually something to do with clocks as spelt Horaculturist they were working on own account ,

Matilda's uncle david Fellman was a watchmaker !

Also in 1915 Lena Fellman was head of household in 17st Bronx aged 37 daughter Tillie was 12
she is listed with Brothers Morrise dentist aged 30
+ Samuel 26 and father Aaron aged 61 not working

I'm guessing Samuel is Ellis maybe sick already
Aaron must be David Ratner (could be middle name usage)

they were all citizens by 1930

1920
Morrice Ratner
[Morris Ratner]
[Martin Ratner]
[Morris Astun]

Morris has been over-written. It looks as if it might have originally been Maurice, then changed to Morris. Goodness why there is an alternative surname, Even if they weren't sure about the atner, it deffinately starts with an R.

The next of kin on the WW1 draft form does look like Jessie. Accent?

well done detective + Ann

Re Morris

Are the alternative spellings for Morrice Ratner because handwriting is unclear

Its good that the dentist turns up again living with his siter in law in 1920

otherwise i might have got confused with the shop keeper

I'm guessin Jessie ratner his NOK is a transcription of Gussie .

I will look on Find agrave + see if David Ratner is buried there too

The same Ancestry tree has details for

Eleanor Ratner
Birth 12 JAN 1918 • New York
Death 22 MAY 2003 • Rye, Westchester, New York, United States of America

Spouse

Eugene B Stamm
Birth 14 FEB 1918 • New York
Death 19 JAN 2006 • New Orleans, Orleans, Louisiana
...........

Eleanor Ratner
U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007

Eleanor Ratner
[Eleanor Ratner Stamm]
[Eleanor Stamm]
SSN: 068123129
Gender: Female
Race: White
Birth Date: 12 Jan 1918
Birth Place: Port Chester, New York
[Port Chester??, New York]
Father Name: Morris Ratner
Mother Name: Augusta S Bloomberg
Death Date: 22 May 2003
Type of Claim: Original SSN.
Notes: Jul 1939: Name listed as ELEANOR RATNER; Oct 1961: Name listed as ELEANOR RATNER STAMM; 05 Jun 2003: Name listed as ELEANOR R STAMM

Eugene Bernard Stamm
U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007

Eugene Bernard Stamm
[Eugene B Stamm]
Gender: Male
Race: White
Birth Date: 13 Feb 1918
Birth Place: New York, New York
Father Name: Emanuel I Stamm
Mother Name: Rica Marks
Death Date: 19 Jan 2006
Type of Claim: Original SSN.
Notes: Aug 1939: Name listed as EUGENE BERNARD STAMM; 26 Jan 2006: Name listed as EUGENE B STAMM