Genealogy Chat

WILFRED OXLEY, my grandfather was born on 23rd September 1874

His parents were THOMAS OXLEY & ADA OXLEY (formerly Carter) as shown on birth certificate & resident at 37 Hillside, Chesterfield. However that would be the last
time Wilfred would be able to use the Oxley surname until 1900 when he married his wife, Sarah Minnie Snell on April 2nd 1900 , following his father's death in 1899.

For the record a brief history of the Oxley/Carter family is as follows :-

1841 Census in Barnsley
Thomas Oxley, Head 40 - Ag. lab.(subsequently brickmaker}
Sarah Oxley, wife 30
William 13
Henry 12
James 10
Ann 6
Sarah 4
Ellen 2
Margaret 10wks

1851 Census in Barnsley
Sarah Oxley, Head (widow) 43 - receiving parochial relief
Sarah Jane Oxley 12
Ellen Oxley 9
Margaret 7
Thomas 5
Joseph Moss, lodger 23

1861 Census in Barnsley
Sarah Oxley, Head 50
Sarah Jane 23
Margaret 20
Thomas15
Sarah Ann 8mths

1871 Census in Leeds
Thomas Oxley, Head 25 Lab. at foundry
Mary Ann Oxley,Wife 21 - formerly Mary Ann Collins (See marriage certificate
9b 364 Kirkstall - Dec 1866)
Thomas 2 - (See birth certificate 09b 465 Leeds)
Joseph 6mths

1881 Census in Leeds
Mary Ann Oxley, Head 33
Note absence of Thomas Oxley Head - see reappearance but as Thomas Carter in !881 Census in Chesterfield below
Thomas Oxley 12
Herbert Oxley 8

1881 Census in Chesterfield
Thomas Carter, Head 34 - Iron fitter & turner
Ada Carter, Wife 26
Wilfred 6
Sarah 1

1891 Census in Chesterfield
Thomas Carter, Head 39 - Steam engine fitter
Mary Ann Carter, Wife 28 - This is Mary Ann Hewitt, Thomas's third wife, They were
married on 28th February 1887, the marriage certificate confirming this.Thomas's
second wife Ada died in 1885.
Wilfred 16
Sarah 11
James A 9
Frederick Hewitt, stepson 5
Fanny V 2
Sarah Jane Watson, Visitor 52 (formerly Sarah Jane Oxley who married George
Watson in Burley, Leeds in 1866, the marriage being witnessed by Thomas and
Mary Ann Oxley, and would confirm that Sarah Jane was the sister of Thomas
(See 1861 Census)

Events
1895 Mary Ann Carter died
1899 Thomas Carter died
1900 Wilfred Oxley(now his true name confirmed married Sarah Minnie Snell
on Aril 2nd 1900 - 7b 609)

1901 Census in Staveley, Chesterfield
Wilfred Oxley, Head 26 - Blacksmith
Sarah Minnie Oxley, Wife 23
Minnie 0

The history of the Oxley family as stated above, together with the research required
to solve the Oxley/Carter mystery has been quite demanding, but quite interesting. I was somewhat surprised, but relieved, when I found Thomas had married Mary Ann
Collins in 1866, which indeed was the piece of the jigsaw which solved the mystery

Many thanks, once again, to the team of members of GR for all the help & guidance
over the past few weeks, with a special thanks to Ann Cardiff & JoonieCloonie and I was never in doubt that you would see things through to the end.

Thanks for coming to my rescue !!

I must always remember there may be more than one page. I have checked the 'Preview' facility and it does't appear to be functioning - maybe I'm not using it properly.

I shall follow your advice and concentrate on the birth certificates you have suggested.
As a rule I usually purchase BMD certificates only when I can be sure that the information I shall receive is what I wish to see and keep for family research records.
But, of course, there are times when rules have to be broken I guess.

I am, of course referring to

Births Dec 1845
Oxley Thomas Ecclesfield 22 139

Births Jun
Oxley Thomas Leeds 9b 465

I'll be sure to keep you posted

Here you are Bert - Bert sent me a PM because he thought his post had got lost in the ether but I think maybe you didn't go back to page 2 after posting maybe.

I don't actually think you need those certificates -- they aren't going to tell you any more than what is here in the thread already, I think.

for the first, you have:

Name: Thomas Oxley
Birth Year: abt 1845
Age: 21
Marriage or Bann Date: 23 Dec 1866
Parish: Burley, St Matthias
Father's name: Thomas Oxley
Spouse's Name: Mary Anne Collins
Spouse's Father's Name: William Collins
Thomas - Labourer - Bachelor
Address:- Burley
Father Occupation:- Brick-maker
Mary Anne - Spinster - no occupation shown
Address:- Burley
Father occupation:- Pedler
Witnesses:- George Watson and William Oxley

and for the second you have:

Sarah Jane Oxley @ 1837 married 25/6/1866 to George Watson in Burley near Leeds.her dad was Thomas Oxley a brick maker.
Witnessed by Thomas and Mary Ann Oxley.


... and that is all the info you will get from the certificates.


So I'd start with a birth certificate -- actually these two


Births Dec 1845
Oxley Thomas Ecclesfield 22 139

... as being probably your Thomas


Births Jun 1869
Oxley Thomas Leeds 9b 465

... as being probably the child of the Oxley+Collins marriage


they should give you enough info to tell whether these are all the same Thomas, son of Thomas the brickmaker


and not to worry, we women who do this stuff are used to the men sticking rigidly to their wrongheaded ideas

:-D :-D :-D :-D

I have been a long time deliberating all the information received during the last few days and have finally decided the course of action I must take in an effort to resolve the situation. I am also aware that I have, until now, stuck rigidly to the notion that Thomas Oxley wandered aimlessly around the country during the 1860's ending his fruitless journey in meeting Ada Carter and creating the "Carter family" for himself and the Oxley/Carter mystery for me.

I haven't any idea yet what the outcome is likely to be but in principle I shall be applying for a number of BMD certificates which I hope will answer many questions which require answers. The first that comes to mind is the certificate of marriage between Thomas Oxley and Mary Ann Collins (9B 364) in Kirkstall on 23rd December 1866 and between Sarah Jane Oxley and George Watson (9B 366) on 25th June 1966 also in Kirkstall. This will be followed by a number of birth certificates that i have in mind.

I'm afraid that all I have to offer for the time being but I shall keep you all informed. As always I would welcome any suggestions that could be helpful, and may I say again and again many thanks for not giving up on me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Best regards - Bert


<3

I believe a tinplate puddler would have been in Wales, Ann

this was Yorkshire and the 1861 census does say 'Puddler of Iron'

with fits with the other iron foundry occupations the men here held

a puddler would have worked in the tinplate industry - as did my paternal line

phew!!


glad you agree!!

sure looks like it Sylvia!

Mary Ann would have been a little previous when she called herself Oxley in June of the same year, since she didn't marry until December, but that's not unusual

George Watson witnessed Thomas Oxley's marriage to Mary Ann

and then Thomas Oxley witnessed his sister Sarah Jane's marriage to George Watson

both marriages showing father Thomas Oxley brick maker

kind of a perfect fit :-)


oops your second message

I actually thought I had investigated the Collins marriage, but not as far as you did and you do seem to have nailed it

I think Puddler/Pedlar is one of the more minor mishearings/misunderstandings we have seen!

Thomas Oxley also worked in iron making so it fits.

Mary Ann Collins is the right age to fit with Mary Ann Oxley in 1871, and everything else fits.


I think the reason I was suspicious of that marriage at first

Marriages Dec 1866
Collins Mary A Kirkstall 9b 364
OXLEY Thomas Kirkstall 9b 364

is that it was registered in a completely different registration district

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/kirkstall.html

oh no, here we are, it does cover

Headingley with Burley

so there we are (it was in Leeds later)

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/leeds.html

possibly leaping to a conclusion????


1861 Census

Name: Mary Ann Collins
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: 1850
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: William Collins
Mother's name: Elisabeth Collins
Gender: Female
Where born: Wednesbury, Staffordshire, England
Civil Parish: Headingley
Ecclesiastical parish: Burley
Town: Burley
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Registration district: Hunslet
Sub-registration district: Kirkstall
ED, institution, or vessel: 7

Household schedule number: 28
Piece: 3353
Folio: 111
Page Number: 6

William Collins 41 Puddler of Iron
Elisabeth Collins 39
Joseph Collins 18
Mary Ann Collins 11
William Collins 9
Elisabeth Collins 5
Henry Collins 7

Address:- 16 Willow St, Village of Burley


Father is a Puddler, not a Pedler as on the marriage certificate ....................... but that could be vicar mis-hearing?????

?????????????????


could this be the first marriage???????????



The Parish is shown as "Parish of Burley nr Leeds"


West Yorkshire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1935

Name: Thomas Oxley
Birth Year: abt 1845
Age: 21
Marriage or Bann Date: 23 Dec 1866
Parish: Burley, St Matthias
Father's name: Thomas Oxley
Spouse's Name: Mary Anne Collins
Spouse's Father's Name: William Collins


from image:-

Thomas
Labourer
Bachelor
Address:- Burley
Father Occupation:- Brick-maker

Mary Anne
Spinster
no occupation shown
Address:- Burley
Father occupation:- Pedler

Witnesses:- George Watson and William Oxley

private message sent by Albert

______________________________________________

I have your message dated 8 Feb 2015 ...

Census 1841 in Barnsley
Thomas Oxley 40 ag lab
Sarah Oxley30
and their 7 children especially Sarah(Jane?)

Census 1851 in Worsbrough
Sarah Oxley 43 (Widow) - I believe Thomas died in 3 - 1841
Sarah Jane Oxley 12
Ellen Oxley 9
Margaret Oxley 7
Thomas Oxley 5 (my Thomas)
Joseph Moss 23 (Lodger)

Census 1861 in Barnsley
Sarah Oxley 50
Sarah Jane Oxley 23
Margaret Oxley 20
Thomas Oxley 15 (my Thomas)
Sarah Ann 8 mnth

Census 1881 in Chesterfield
Thomas Carter 34 (my Thomas - believe it or not)
Ada Carter 28 (died 1885)
Wilfred Carter 6 (my grandfather - Birth certificate 77.11.3 names father
as Thomas Oxley)
Sarah Carter 1

Census 1891 in Chesterfield
Thomas Carter 39
Mary Ann Carter 28 (nee Hewitt - Thomas's 2nd wife)
Wilfred Carter 16
Sarah Carter 11
James A Carter 9
Frederick Hewitt 5 (Step son)
Fanny v Carter 2
Sarah Jane Watson 52 (Visitor) See following Note>>>>>>>>>

______________________________________________


Yes, Albert, but ...

you have completely skipped over the information I posted about Thomas in 1871 in Leeds with his wife Mary Ann and children Thomas and Joseph!

and then Mary Ann with children Thomas and Herbert in Leeds
in 1881 (where she says she is married)
and in 1891 (where she says she is widowed)

My idea is that Thomas's first wife (or partner) was Mary Ann, and he left that family ... or Mary Ann left him ... and then he partnered with Ada (and then, when she died, with a new Mary Ann)

if he was married to the first Mary Ann (1871 census) that would be a reason why he did not marry Ada, and possibly why he took her surname, to conceal his identity / his status

______________________________________________


Albert added this note:


Am I to understand that Sarah Jane Oxley born in Barnsley1839 , married George Watson in Burley near Leeds in 1866, the marriage being witnessed by Thomas and Mary Ann Oxley. A copy of the marriage certificate would confirm this. In turn this would go a long way in confirming that my Thomas was the brother of Sarah Jane Oxley.

Can we be sure that there is now a link between the aforementioned families an therefore another branch to the family tree?. I've got a feeling that some further research may be necessary.

Finally I would just like to thank all my new GR advisors and can i say friends for all their valuable help during the last ten days(it feels more like ten weeks) - maybe further help my be required and I hope forthcoming.

Best regards and Au Revoir

Albert (Bert)

______________________________________________


as I understand it, Thomas witnessed Sarah Jane's marriage ... Mary posted this and maybe she would say where it comes from ...

Sarah Jane Oxley @ 1837 married 25/6/1866 to George Watson in Burley near Leeds.her dad was Thomas Oxley a brick maker.
Witnessed by Thomas and Mary Ann Oxley.


you note that in the early censuses I posted for your Thomas, there is a sister Sarah Jane, which matches that information

BTW (haha, now you know what that means!) ...

>>> note that the other witness is Mary Ann Oxley

this matches with what I found ... Thomas's first marriage where he is in Leeds with wife Mary Ann in 1871

so it looks like he and his first wife witnessed his sister Sarah Jane's marriage


what I wish we could find is a marriage for Thomas to Mary Ann (the first) before about 1866 ... but she was very young so perhaps they did not marry

but if you got the birth certificate for one of his children (not Herbert to start with because he might not be Thomas's son)

Births Jun 1869
Oxley Thomas Leeds 9b 465

it should give you her name and give you information about Thomas that could help confirm this was your Thomas


does that help? :-)


and also ... look back at the information I posted about people who have Oxleys in their family tries who are from what seems to be Thomas's first family, and use the Search Trees function to try to contact them

I know you are having trouble working out how the site works, but you have got to do it eventually!


To search trees, click on
>>> Search
up at the top (with the little magnifying glass beside it)
and then click on
>>> Search All Member Trees


To find this thread, click on Community up at the top and then click on
>>> My Threads


and when you finish reading this page, click at the bottom of the messages on
>>> 2
to read the second page!

(I meant a real explanation! i.e. whether the person who made the correction is actually related to the household. :-) )

Albert ... you are reading the messages here, so you have got to reply here and not by private message

(you replied to the private message I sent you, but that message was just to ask you to come back here and reply here)

For info in reply to the questions in your private message

- this entire 'conversation' is a 'thread' - it consists of one 'post' (message) after another, forming a thread

- each message in the thread is a 'post'

you add your own post (message) here by tying in the box at the bottom of the thread where it says in big letters
>>> Add your reply
and then, beside the box
>>> Post

and then you click the box where it says
>>> Add to My Watched Threads
(that means you will get an email when someone adds a post)

and then you click the button that says
>>> Submit


now I'll get to what you said in your private message to me

ah


I misunderstood .......... you said "without an explanation"

but the explanation is there ............"mistranscription" :-)

yes that's what I said Sylvia :-D

'someone has corrected his name from Oxfey to Oxley at Ancestry but without giving an explanation, and could be contacted there'

... Oxfey is not a name :-)

(I don't like to post people's usernames here especially when they seem to be their real names, just another instance of talking about somebody who isn't present)

the person who has

Thomas Oxley 1845 Barnsley South Yorkshire

in their tree here at Genes Reunited also has

Herbert Oxley 1872 Holbeck, Leeds


I have messaged Albert asking him to return, and am rather hoping the thread doesn't get longer before he does, so he can find and follow the outline I have given :-)

JoonieC posted ...............


and in 1891 in Leeds

Mary A Oxley 42, born Leeds (as a ditto), head, scribbler filler, widowed
Tom Oxley 22, born Leeds, iron turner, single
- son Herbert is married and someone has corrected his name from Oxfey to Oxley at Ancestry but without giving an explanation, and could be contacted there

-------


looking at the image of the 1891 Census on ancestry .................. it does indeed look as if the surname is Oxfey but that it was then corrected to OxLey ................


and this is the explanation given ..............


Herbert Oxley rather than Herbert Oxfey

Correction due to an error in transcription.

Submitted by: judithstrachan1 on 14/12/2013




This is further confirmed by looking for Herbert's marriage to an Eva .............

Marriages Mar 1891 (>99%)

Oxley Herbert Leeds 9b 780
Senior Eva Leeds 9b 780




By 1901, Herbert and Eva had 2 children ............

Name Age
Herbert Oxley 28
Eva Oxley 27
Mary Ann Oxley 8
Thomas William 4

Albert, would you please reply in the thread here?

type your message in the box at the bottom where it says 'Add your reply' ... the box is next to the word 'Post'

(I am realizing that people with vision problems like mine may find it difficult even to see this reply box!)


perhaps you read the information I posted above?


I think there is little question about which family your Thomas belongs to


1841 in Barnsley

Thomas Oxley 40 ag lab
Sarah Oxley 30
William Oxley 13
Henry Oxley 12
James Oxley 10
Ann Oxley 6
Sarah Oxley 4
Ellen Oxley 2
Margaret Oxley 10week


1851 in Worsbrough

Sarah Oxley 43
>> Sarah Jane Oxley 12
Ellen Oxley 9
Margaret Oxley 7
>> Thos Oxley 5 >> your Thomas
Joseph Moss 23


Thomas was already married when he partnered with Ada Carter, which explains the fact that there is no marriage to Ada Carter, and probably explains his adopting her surname.

I have deleted the possible marriage I posted earlier, because I seem to have lost my mind and thought that someone born in 1845 married in 1857. If Thomas *was* married to his first wife, I do not see a perfect choice for the marriage ... Mary Ann would have been underage so perhaps they did not marry


1871 in Leeds with first wife Mary Ann

Thomas Oxley 25 born Barnsley, labourer at foundry
Mary Ann Oxley 21 born Wedgbury, Staffordshire
Thomas Oxley 2
Joseph Oxley 5 Months


then in 1881, Thomas is with his new family with Ada

Thomas Carter, Head 34 born Barnsley Yorkshire, iron fitter? and ?
Ada Carter, Wife 28 born Nottingham Notts
Wilfred Carter Son 6 born Chesterfield Derbyshire
Sarah Carter Dau. 1 born " "


and this is his first wife (or not) Mary Ann in 1881 in Leeds

Mary A. Oxley 33 head, married, born Golden Hill, Staffordshire
Thomas Oxley 12
Herbert Oxley 8 born Leeds

and in 1891 in Leeds

Mary A Oxley 42, born Leeds (as a ditto), head, scribbler filler, widowed
Tom Oxley 22, born Leeds, iron turner, single
- son Herbert is married and someone has corrected his name from Oxfey to Oxley at Ancestry but without giving an explanation, and could be contacted there


without a marriage certificate in either case to show a father's name, certainty is difficult

but the Thomas
- in 1851 and 1861 with parents Thomas and Sarah and sister Sarah Jane
- in 1871 with wife Mary Ann
matches your Thomas in 1881 too perfectly


If you get the birth certificate for the first child with Mary Ann

Births Jun 1869
Oxley Thomas Leeds 9b 465

it may give information that will be useful for making the connection


and get this birth certificate for your Thomas

Births Dec 1845
Oxley Thomas Ecclesfield 22 139


and, as I said, contact people who have these people in their trees at this website

Thomas Oxley 1869 Leeds West Yorkshire
Thomas Oxley 1845 Barnsley South Yorkshire


Does that help to follow it now?

message from poster


Thank you for confirming all the details listed relating to the all that has happened within the Oxley/ Carter household up to and including the marriage of Wilfred Oxley and Sarah Minnie Snell.

My concern is now related to the possibility that Thomas Oxley and Ada
Carter were never married and I am anxious to know more about Thomas Oxley's ancestors. I have worked hard trying to establish which family he belongs to. There are so many families named Oxley within the Barnsley area having both father & son named Thomas who fit within the age ranges dictated by the Census returns.
Am I possibly missing the point somewhere and are there other directions in which I should be going?
Any help would be much appreciated!

Yup, that was my suggestion for the name change - avoiding fallout from the first marriage if he had deserted that family!


1841

Name: Sarah Oxley
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1837
Gender: Female
Where born: Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Barnsley
Hundred: Staincross
County/Island: Yorkshire
View imageRegistration district: Ecclesfield

Thomas Oxley 40 ag lab
Sarah Oxley 30
William Oxley 13
Henry Oxley 12
James Oxley 10
Ann Oxley 6
Sarah Oxley 4
Ellen Oxley 2
Margaret Oxley 10week


1851 in Worsbrough

Sarah Oxley 43
Sarah Jane Oxley 12
Ellen Oxley 9
Margaret Oxley 7
Thos Oxley 5
Joseph Moss 23

1891 census has Sarah Jane Watson born @ 1839 Barnsley.

Sarah Jane Oxley @ 1837 married 25/6/1866 to George Watson in Burley near Leeds.her dad was Thomas Oxley a brick maker.
Witnessed by Thomas and Mary Ann Oxley.

Your Thomas was the brother of Sarah Jane Oxley, so this more or less confirms your Thomas was the one who married in Leeds.Maybe that is the reason for the name change.

Maryb.

Hello Albert and welcome to the Community boards.




(I'll let Albert know how to find his replies) :-)