Genealogy Chat

Hello Margaret

What I am suggesting is next stage is to find as full details of the 1830 marriage and the 1837 baptism of Hannah Poole. Find original record in St Mary's for marriage, possibly also look at Bishops Transcript to see if there are more details of bride and groom. And possibly it may refer to a marriage license, which will be a third and different document relating to the marriage of Maria Branson in 1830.

I did wonder if she might have been a widow when she married but she would only have been about 18 and I think her birth surname was definitely Branson

Any records from this Old Meeting House Presbyterian Church may be useful in eliciting a clue about Maria. Did she attend the church, were any of her Branson relatives godparents of 3 youngest children - or two eldest for that matter, was her funeral service conducted at the Presbyterian Chapel or the parish church, or both.. And did any of her Branson family attend the funeral.

And her place of burial. Who attended the burial - any from her family. Any newspaper report about the funeral.

Also, when George died, it might have mentioned his only wife and mother of his children in his obituary - possibly even mentioning who was her father and where Maria was from.

I think teasing these sort of clues out will be the only way to find who Maria was. I would love to help, and would if I lived over there. I live abroad in a foreign country called Wales.

Possibly someone will be as keen as me to find out about this elusive lady and will be prepared to do a bit of digging for you. Obviously, you blindness restricts you somewhat.

I really think these Bransons will prove to be a significant non-Conformist family and my belief is that it will be well worthwhile finding the background of your gg grandmother.

Yes you have the right family. the reason
William is missing is because he joined the army and was out in China and India until he came out in 1871 after the census
and he married. it is this William who was my great/grandfather.
And the death for his father George was in 1899 aged 87 in Haverhill. But I really wanted to try and find out about his mother Maria Branson
Thank you Margaret

I note address was Crowland in 1831, Downes in 1833 and 1841 (ref Chris) and reverted to Crowland in C1851. Any significance? Also, George junior is listed as a "cripple" in C1851 aged 17, born Haverhill and living with widowed father and his 3 younger siblings, Hannah (16, housekeeper), James, 11 and Harriet POOL, 7.

Eldest son William b 1831 seems to have escaped in C1851 and C1861 and appears again for his marriage in 1871. Cannot find him at all in C1851 and C1861. Australian Gold Rush, Royal Navy, army? May have had row with father after Maria died and decamped.

Below are some Baptisms...(Find My Past)

Day:25
Month:Dec
Year:1831
Forenames:William
Surname:Poole
Relationship:
Father:George
Occupation:Weaver
Mother:Maria
Abode:Haverhill
Parish:Haverhill, St Mary
County:Suffolk
Notes:bn 17 Aug / Crowland
Record source:Suffolk Baptism Index


Day:28
Month:Oct
Year:1833
Forenames:George
Surname:Poole
Relationship:
Father:George
Occupation:Weaver
Mother:Maria
Abode:Haverhill
Parish:Haverhill, St Mary
County:Suffolk
Notes:bn 27 May / Downes (as in 1841 address)
Record source:Suffolk Baptism Index

Chris :)

Hi Margaret

Yes, I have spotted 5 children - William, George, Hannah, James and Harriett. William bt Christmas Day 1831 at Haverhill (think it would be Parish Church) aged 4 months; George bt 28 Oct 1833 at Haverhill aged 6 months.

Then Hannah bt 15 Oct 1837 at Old Meeting House Presbyterian, Haverhill which seemd a more significant clue than baptisms of elder brothers. Presbyterianism/Congregational churches in that area were very Calvinist in their doctrine and, although independent of each other, there was a close link and marriages often took place between members of chapels a good distance apart.

That is why I would suggest you concentrate on 1830 marriage and 1837 baptism of Hannah. I have a feeling that Maria BRANSON's family may have worshipped at Stambourne 6 miles away (church of Rev James SPURGEON, granddfather of world-famous Baptist leader of late 19th century, Charles Haddon SPURGEON (1834-1895).. Another possibility is that they worshipped in Colchester Independent/Congregational/Presbyterian. There is a James BRANSON in Colchester in C1841, C1851 etc who may be a brother. But his will (on Ancestry) makes no mention of POOLEs unfortunately - only BRANSONS and JOHNSONs.

I may well be wrong and there is no overriding reason why they could not be Quakers as Rollo suggested, as this was a very important Society (Society of Friends) at the time. But my advice would be to look for any clues from this 1830 marriage of Maria BRANSON and 1837 baptism of Hannah POOLE. Then perhaps look for baptisms of younger children (James and Harriet POOL(E)) who I think will be baptised as infants in the Independent.English Presbyterian Church in Hamlet Road, Haverhill (today a URC Church)

Deaths Jun 1900 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
POOLE George 87 Risbridge 4a 441


Burial
First name(s): George
Last name: POOLE
Date of burial 5 May 1900
Age at death: 87
Calculated year of birth: 1813
Place of burial Haverhill
Dedication: Cemetery
County: Suffolk
Haverhill Cemetery:
Denomination: Cemetery
Coverage 1867 - 1900
Data provider: Suffolk Family History Society


(is this George above?)...

Chris :)


Deaths Dec 1899 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Poole George 64 Sudbury 4a 498

(other Death)

Hello Margaret, the Burial of Maria is below...(Find My Past)

Burial
First name(s): Maria
Last name: POOLE
Date of burial 13 Jun 1849
Age at death: 37
Calculated year of birth: 1812
Place of burial Haverhill
Dedication: St Mary
County: Suffolk

Chris :)

Thank you all so much it makes interesting reading. As some of you know I am a blind user was not always I have a talking
computer.
I have not found the burial place for Maria Poole her husband
George died in 1899 and he was buried in the Haverhill cemetary.
The son George born in 1833 was baptised it is on the family searchsite.
Margaret

Reggie

Pointed that out in my first letter: "Birth would be 1811 probably - if 37 at death in first quarter of 1849. Not born in Suffolk (C1841) so Essex nearby sounds a good bet - somewhere like Colchester.

Have you noticed baptism of 3rd child Hannah is at Old Meeting House Presbyterian in Haverhill (IGI)."

I agree it got rather lost with a lister (Rollo) telling us incorrectly that there was no such thing as a Presbyterian Church outside Scotland and if it said Meeting House it must be Quakers. He did, in fairness, also suggest the Colne Valley as Maria's birthplace, which seems likely to me also.

I do think the Old Meeting House clue could unlock this mystery eventually. Maria BRANSON and George POOLE were probably brought up in same denomination but in different towns. Often they married in established church because it seemed "proper" but they would worship etc in their Independent chapel. And I think it possible that records and minute books of their chapels may be available somewhere. I would search Haverhill Presbyterian and Stambourne Congregational chapel records myself, if Maria was my ancestor.

If I am right, I would expect the 1830 marriage in Haverhill to be by License - so that may be another record held somewhere. Licenses can sometimes be useful documents, particularly if money is involved.

Margaret

To get back to your request..........

The 1841 census does not say birth place unknown....it says not born in County, which is, in this instance, Suffolk

Rollo:-)

My favourite chapel in your neck of woods is The Church of the Peculiar People. I was driving in South Essex through Bradwell, I think. About 20 years ago. Suddenly I saw this little chapel proudly displaying its board "Church of the Peculair People" - a name taken from a Biblical passage "the peculiar people of God".

I saw an old man opposite and he was a deacon and proudly showed me his chapel. Yes, there has been a very special and unique chapel history in your area.

Not so easy for us family historians though. So much variety, so many places for records to vanish. :-)

I think Stambourne (where Spurgeon's grandfather James was Presbyterian/Independent Minister in 1830's and 1840's) is only about 6 miles from Haverhill, where Maria Branson's daughter Hannah was baptised at Presbyterian Old Meeting House.

So even possible the Rev James Spurgeon came over himself from Sambourne to conduct the baptism. It will be very interesting to get the details of that baptism.

Hannah POOLE (elder daughter of Maria BRANSON) was born 7 Dec 1834, was not baptised in parish church in Haverhill soon after birth like her two elder brothers. Think baptism was 15 Oct 1837 when she would have been nearly 3. Cannot find baptisms of younger siblings James b 1839 and Harriet b 1843 but would assume they would be in the new Presbyterian Church built in 1839 in Hamlet Road, Haverhill. I am sure there wil be detailed records somewhere of the Presbyterian Church in Haverhill.

I remember there was a Dr Williams Library in South London that had loads of old Puritan books, but don't know if they had any chapel records. These English Presbyterian chapels and Independent chapels mostly were built up by Church of England vicars (2,000 of them) who were sacked from Anglican Church in August 1662 with no job, no house and they lost a whole year's salary that they had almost earned. So they had to build up independent congregations and write Puritan books to keep the bailiffs at bay.

"Old Independent URC Church,
Hamlet Road,
Haverhill
Suffolk

Cemeteries
The church does not have a graveyard.
Church History
It was founded in 1839.

In 1972 the Congregational church joined with the English Presbyterian church to become the United Reformed Church. Some Congregational churches though did not take this path and became members of the Congregational Federation. " (Ref Genuki)

Baptism of Maria's daughter was at Old Presbyterian Meeting House, so probably a building in which the congregation worshipped prior to chapel being built. It may even have been a redundant Quaker building that they used for a couple of years in 1830's, but I think Meeting House is a pretty generic term amongst dissenting causes.

Rollo

Why Quaker? I know they also call their places Meeting Houses.

Why Scottish?

No, Haverhill had a good old meeting house for a church run by presbyters along independent lines. Each chapel was very independent and usually had a very professional and accomplished Minister. Charles Haddon SPURGEON was baptised at Stanbourne, Essex in 1834 by his grandfather - a famous dissenting Presbyterian/Independent Minister called Rev James SPURGEON. Is Stanbourne anywhere near Haverhill? Spurgeon was converted in a Primitive Methodist Chapel in Colchester and was baptised with a Baptist adult baptism in the River Lark near Lakenheath. At the end of a farm track, there is a small plaque noting his baptism. I know it was on May 2nd because I was, by pure coincidence, standing there on 2 May 1994 thinking how committed you had to be as a Christian to submerge yourself in that icy and fast flowing river.

I think The Old Prebyterian Meeting House would have become an Independent Chapel and then become United Reform latterly. There is an old URC chapel in Hamlet Road, which may be the one. Presbyterians would quake at the thought their ancestors might think they were Quakers:-)

Quakers Lane
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-466420-1-and-2-haverhill

them
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-466428-baptist-chapel-haverhill

main stream independent
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-466407-old-independent-church-haverhill

"Meeting House" would be Quaker. Who on earth pout that down as Presby. ?

I have already posted (a) that Essex was a strong possibility and in particular Oakley between Colchester and Harwich and (b) strong poss. non conformist.

I grew up in the area and while it is very true that it was strongly non conformist (we all had to read John Bunyan at school ) it was mainly Wesleyan / Methodist / Quaker and not Presbyterian (Scottish) by the wildest stretch of the imagination. Presbyterianism would not have fitted in with the folk of the Colne Valley.

Birth would be 1811 probably - if 37 at death in first quarter of 1849. Not born in Suffolk (C1841) so Essex nearby sounds a good bet - somewhere like Colchester.

Have you noticed baptism of 3rd child Hannah is at Old Meeting House Presbyterian in Haverhill (IGI). I think that chapel may still stand at CB9 9EF. The Independants/Presbyterians were probably about the wealthiest of the chapels and, as many have said, it was an area crawling with non-Conformist causes. Spurgeon (the great Baptist leader of 19th century) was born in that area and baptised as a child in the church where his grandfather Spurgeon was Minister. That was also independent (Sudbury possibly) and would have had fellowship with Haverhill.

Do you know where Maria was buried. If there is a burial place at Old Meeting House, she may be there and it may point to where her Branson family are buried. Either there or a nearby Independent chapel.

Likely father's name was William or James BRANSON (naming of children).

Presbyterians would have kept minute books of their meetings, I would have thought. Possibly a clue to her origins there. And their records of baptisms/funerals would probably be very detailed.

Day:05
Month:Nov
Year:1830
Groom Forename:George
Groom Surname:Poole
Groom's parish:
Groom's condition:
Bride Forename:Maria
Bride Surname:Branson
Bride's Parish:
Bride's condition:
Place:Haverhill
County:Suffolk
Country:England
Record source:Suffolk Marriage Index (1813-37)
Data provider:Suffolk Family History Society

(the above Find My Past, not much help though)

Chris :)

Burial
First name(s): Maria
Last name: POOLE
Date of burial 13 Jun 1849
Age at death: 37
Calculated year of birth: 1812
Place of burial Haverhill
Dedication: St Mary
County: Suffolk

Thank you all I have the parish record for the marriage of
George Poole to Maria Branson I will have to wait
for someone to read it to me to see who the
witnesses were.
Margaret