Genealogy Chat

Hi brummiejan Considering all the records I do have frustratingly there's actually very little info on them. Alfred was aged 22 and a Driver with the RHA when they married so the residence just has Aldershot Fathers name George James Bricklayer. In his war records George is down as the next of kin with his address is 24 Court 1 House King (or Kings) Street Birmingham. Trouble is I'm not sure if that was added to the record when Alfred enlisted in 1888 or when he was leaving in 1900 as it's crossed out and next of kin was changed to Minnie (Wife) they married in 1892 I have Alfreds Death certificate and it only gives me his age as 56 The man is a mystery

Ali

Forget the above - apologies - I suspect the son's 2nd name has been recorded as his surname, and Lizzie has just followed on:

Births Mar 1867
Shaw Alfred James W. Ham 4a 27

Jan

This is the Alfred above, must be a total red herring I think, though why his children have surname James in 1881 defeats me!

1871 England Census

Name: Alfred Shaw
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Shaw
Gender: Male
Where born: Belgium
Civil parish: Garston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Micheal
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Wavertree

Alfred Shaw 32
Alfred Shaw 4
Emma Shaw 7
Minnie Shaw 6
Eliza Shaw 1
Sarah Shaw 32
Bengimen Bell 55

Do you have his address when he married (apologies if this has been given already, might be me having a grey moment!). Just thought it might be worth checking out.

I did find this, a very long shot but putting it as Alfred Shaw happens to be a bricklayer:

1881 England Census

Name: Alfred James
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Alfred Shaw
Mother's Name: Ann Shaw
Gender: Male
Where born: Canning Town

Civil parish: Bilston
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Street Address: No 9 Stone St

Registration district: Wolverhampton
Sub-registration district: Bilston

Alfred Shaw 42
Ann Shaw 37
Alfred James 14
Lizzie James 1
George Pittam 17
Mary Alice Wright 7
Henry Wright 3

I suspect Ann was a Wright though, so not mother to the Alfred above:

Marriages Jun 1879
Crooke John Wolverhampton 6b 611
GOLBY Lucy Wolverhampton 6b 611
Shaw Alfred Wolverhampton 6b 611
Wright Ann Wolverhampton 6b 611


1891 England Census

Name: Alfred Shaw
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Shaw
Gender: Male
Where born: Belgium

Civil parish: Bilston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Leonard
Town: Bilston
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Registration district: Wolverhampton
Sub-registration district: Bilston

Alfred Shaw 52
Ann Shaw 47
Mary Ellis Wright 17 Stepdaughter
Lizzie Shaw 11
Tom Shaw 9
Lottie Pittam 4


Jan

Ahh. . . . . I see what you are getting at now. Portsea and Aldershot are about 40 miles appart. . . .This family are driving me nutts! lol oooh back to the drawing board. . . again!

Ali

Ali,

I know you are trying to find Alfred James. I am suggesting he might have gone by another surname as we cannot find him in earlier census records.

Time and time again we see surnames change for many reasons. Examples are illegitimacy, bigamy, mother remarried, etc, etc.

With Minnie listed as being born Aldershot 1894/1895 in census records then a Q3 1897 birth in Portsea district can't possibly be your Minnie. If you look on the 1901 census, you can confirm this correspond to another Minnie.

Likewise, with the Alfred James birth you mention in Portsea district.

Portsea district and Farnham district are no where near each other.

The only likely birth for your Minnie is the Roberts one I mention.

Rose

Hi Rose. I'm not sure where you're getting the surname Roberts from? My Minnie Louisa James was born Q3 1897 Portsea Island Hampshire Volume 2b page 418 on the 1901 and 1911 Census they've put Aldershot, Hampshire. Alfred Frederick James has the Born in the parish of Aldershot on his war records. Robert Henry was my husbands grandfather. I'm trying to find their father Alfred James born 1870 in Birmingham to George James who was a bricklayer

Ali

Dottie,

Do you actually have the birth certificates for Alfred and Minnie? The only birth showing on FreeBMD is for Robert Henry James.

There is no birth for an Alfred Frederick James.

On the census records he is born in Aldershot so a Portsmouth area birth seems unlikely. That, plus there is a Alfred James born in Portsmouth showing on the 1901 census, so that birth you say was in Q1 1893 can't be yours.

There is also no birth for a Minnie Louisa James. Aldershot district didn't exist until the 1930s, so any birth should be in Farnham district. I think you really need to order the cert for the Minnie Louisa Roberts.

Rose

Hi Rose.

Thank you for your help.

Alfred and Minnie's children were Alfred Frederick James b Q1 1893 Portsea Island Minnie Louisa James Q3 Aldershot and Robert Henry James b 1st April 1909 Wolverhampton

The only info I have for Alfreds parents is his fathers name and occupation. George James, brick maker/layer. On his war records it also states he was born in 1870 in Birmingham. I have him in the 1891 1901 and 1911 census but there's no trace of him in the 1871 or 1881 census which is why I wondered if he was christened something else.

Penny thank you for your help. You may well be right I will try and look at all Alfreds born in 1870 in B'ham. . . . Might take a while thought! lol

There is always achance that Alfred was born out of wedlock, registered in his mothers name.

in answer to your original question,i think Alfred may well be shortened to Fred, as well as Alf sometimes

You said "Alfred named one of his son's Frederick".

I'm not seeing a Frederick in 1901 or 1911.

Rose

If those children were born in Aldershot I'm not seeing their births registered in Farnham district.

Closest for Minnie is this:

Births Jun 1894
Roberts Minnie Louisa Farnham 2a 112

I can't find a Minnie Roberts on any censuses so this makes me think she could be yours.

and this:

Births Sep 1892
Roberts Alfred James Farnham 2a 104

Perhaps we should look for him under Roberts in 1871 and 1881?

Rose

Hi Shirley. I'm starting to think you might be right and he wasn't registered. But unfortunately it doesn't explain his absence from the 1871 and 1881 census. I've got his marriage, death and war records but all have very little info on them! lol

He seems to be consistently Alfred and in the 1911 he doesnt give any second names for himself even though he has listed wife Minnie Louisa.

i am more inclined to think his birth wasnt registered ..

Do you know of any siblings born after 1875 ? their births should be registered and you can get his parents names from one of those certs

PS.
jax. . . I've got a copy of that birth record and it's not the right one. . .I was so disappointed when It came. I'm going to have to gamble more money on the Frederick Charles birth record :-(

WOW! you've all been very busy. . . Thank you.

brummiejan. Yes I've got his marriage, war and death records. All of them have father George James marriage one has George as a Brickmaker. His war record has his birth parish as Birmingham, Warwickshire.

jax. Yes, this is my tree. I added all the names to remind me to look for them all lol

Shirley. Thank you I've got all those records but as you can see there's no Alfred James before 1891 But the only George James brickmaker/layer has a son called Charles who fits the age group. and you might have noticed Alfred named one of his sons Frederick.

So all in all folks do you think I'm on the right track? Alfred was born Frederick Charles and they called him Charles then for some reason he changed it to Alfred?

Thank you all so much for your help :-D

1891
JAMES, Alfred Single M 20 1871 Driver I Battery R H A
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
567 Folio:
91 Page:
12 Registration District:
Farnham

Civil Parish:
Aldershot Municipal Borough:
Address:
Aldershot County:
Surrey

1901 still says b Wolverhamtpton
JAMES, Alfred Head Married M 30 1871 Pork Butcher
Wolverhampton
Staffordshire VIEW
JAMES, Minnie Wife Married F 30 1871
Westminster
London VIEW
JAMES, Alfred Son M 8 1893
Aldershot
Hampshire VIEW
JAMES, Minnie Daughter F 6 1895
Aldershot
Hampshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
2682 Folio:
109 Page:
4 Registration District:
Wolverhampton

Civil Parish:
Wolverhampton Municipal Borough:
Address:
323, Bilston Road, Wolverhampton County:
Staffordshire

maybe his birth wasnt registered it wasnt compulsory till 1875

here he is on the 1911 and difrent birthplace
JAMES, Alfred Head Married M 39 1872 Groom Gardener Domestic Wolverhampton Staffordshire VIEW
JAMES, Minnie Louisa Wife Married
20 years F 38 1873 Westminster Kent VIEW
JAMES, Alfred Son Single M 19 1892 Sewing Machine Fitter Aldershott Hampshire VIEW
JAMES, Minnie Louisa Daughter Single F 17 1894 Nurse Girl Aldershott Hampshire VIEW
JAMES, Robert Henry Son Single M 2 1909 Nil VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
17121 Reference:
RG14PN17121 RG78PN1054 RD369 SD7 ED10 SN236

Registration District:
Wolverhampton Sub District:
Bilston Enumeration District:
10 Parish:
Bilston

Address:
5 Arthog Cottages Lewis Street Bilston County:
Staffordshire

married 20 years 3 children and their birth place ties with the Farnham marriage

British Army Service Records 1760-1915
First name(s): Alfred

Last name: JAMES

Calculated year of birth: 1870

Parish of birth: Birmingham

Town of birth: Birmingham

County of birth: Warwickshire

Age at attestation: 18 years 3 months

Attestation date: 8 December 1888

Attestation corps: King's Royal Rifle Corps

Attestation soldier number: 75781


So his marriage, death and army records he was Alfred...atill wondering where the Frederick Charles came from unless its this censis you have found?