Genealogy Chat

Could somebody please give me some advice I'm researching my gggrandfather John Peets I have his death cert he died at age 50 in 1883 at 26 Ancoats street Manchester and he was a musician. The only census I can find is1881 and it has the family as Pitts at same address on it it has his birth as Naples Italy. His son John was my ggrandfather also a musician and has brother Louis. Through Louis I have obtainedsome docs from Man Hist Soc sadly very difficult to read. It says his name Giovanni Pizzo migrated to Liverpool England married Maria Weekly this all fits with family story but I have not been able to prove it grateful for any sugg

Have you tried googling his name?


sylvia

for reference purposes, and to help us get our heads around the family

Is this the family on the 1881 Census


1881 Census

Name: John Pitts
Age: 52
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Naples (British Subject)

Civil Parish: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 26 Ancoats St
Condition as to marriage: Widow

Occupation: Musician

Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Market Street

John Pitts 52 Musician
John Pitts 23 b.ca 1858, Liverpool, Musician
Francis Pitts 21 b.ca 1860, Liverpool, Blacksmith (unemployed)
Louice Pitts 19 b.ca 1862, Liverpool, Son, Blacksmith's Labourer (unemployed)



sylvia

Is the tree on ancestry yours???

As Francis and Lewis were Blacksmiths, you might be interested in thsi site .... and maybe add their names



freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~blacksmiths/index.htm




sylvia

Francis' birth was registered under the name Peets

Births Mar 1859 (>99%)

PEETS Francis Patrick Liverpool 8b 204




so it should be possible to find them on the 1861 and 1871 censuses ..... unless the surname has been so badly mangled that it is unrecognizable!




sylvia

Yes that is the right family, hav googled the name but not found anything helpful. I do have my tree on ancestry and have trolled through 1871 ad 1861 census. I have John jrs birth cert so know they were living in Liverpool when he was born. There must be some kind of record of John snr entering England and becoming a British subject. I did have British ancestry try to find a marriage record for John snr and Maria but they told me there wasn't one so maybe they weren't married. The family story was that he migrated from Italy and changed his name, I am very reluctant to use anything without proof... Thank you Sylvia I am grateful for any hints as I am stuck on all lines of my family.

British Subject,
Not a subject of the country of your birth.

Means that although born in another country one or the other or both parents were British origin.so retained British as his nationality.






You'll see British Subject on many census ie,,,Born India,,British Subject.

Just adding.

The term "British Subject" can in fact mean many different things in addition to what has been mentioned above.

It can be used by anyone who has been naturalised as a British subject when having no British parentage.

In days gone by when a wife married she was thereafter assumed to have adopted the nationality of her husband so a foreigner marrying a British man would thereafter become a British subject by marriage. The reverse was also true. In my family tree I have a female born in Birmingham (of British parents) who married a German (In Birmingham in 1874) and thus became a German subject. They lived their lives in Birmingham and after her husband died in 1904 she had to apply for re-naturalisation as a British subject which was finally granted in 1922. I have copies of her application and subsequent proceedings.

Her husband (Of pure German stock) does not appear to have ever applied for naturalisation as a British subject but is recorded as a "British Subject" born in Wolfstein, Germany on at least 2 census returns. I have spoken to the staff at the National Archive who told me that this was very common. The likely explanation being that when asked by the enumerator, " Where were you born" answered truthfully and because they had a wife and/or children born in the United Kingdom they were automatically assumed to have been of British parentage or to have been naturalised.

think I've found them in 1871

1871 census - household transcription
Person: PATES, Louis
Address: Dewes Street, Monks Coppenhall, Crewe

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born

COLCLOUGH, Daniel Head M 42 1829 Staffordshire
COLCLOUGH, Dinah Wife F 44 1827 Cheshire
MORLEY, Charles Grandson M 6 1865 Lancashire
PATES, John Visitor M 50 1821 Italy
PATES, Maria Visitor F 44 1827 Bedfordshire
PATES, John Visitor M 14 1857 Lancashire
PATES, Francis Visitor M 10 1861 Lancashire
PATES, Louis Visitor M 7 1864 Lancashire
SMITH, Daniel Visitor M 58 1813 Somerset
TOWLEY, Elizabeth Visitor F 64 1807 Cheshire
BROWN, Robert Visitor M 65 1806 Somerset
BEESTON, Isaac Visitor M 23 1848 Shropshire


On the original; John Pates senior is a travelling musician
Maria Pates born Bedford, Bedfordshire
John, Francis and Louis all born Liverpool

looks good tempest!


sylvia

and this seems to be the ancestry version of the 1871 Census that tempest found:-


Name: John Pater
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Male
Where born: Italy
Civil Parish: Coppenhall Monks
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Crewe
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Registration district: Nantwich
Sub-registration district: Wybunbury

Daniel Colclough 42 Carpenter & Joiner
Dixah Colclough 44
Charles Morley 6 Grandson
John Pater 50 Travelling Musician
Maria Pater 44 b.ca 1827, Bedford, Bedfordshire
John Pater 14 b.ca 1857, Liverpool, Travelling Musician
Francis Pater 10 b.ca 1861, Liverpool
Louis Pater 7 b.ca 1864, Liverpool
Daniel Smith 58
Elizabeth Towley 64
Robert Brown 65
Isaac Beeston 23

Address:- 1 Dewes Street


It does look like Pates on the image




sylvia

wow thank you all; re John jnr birth cert.
registration district Liverpool
sub-district Islington Liverpool
county Lancaster
date of birth 15 Dec 1856
Address where born 24 Lionel Street Liverpool
Father John Peets
mother Maria Peets formerly Weekly
Fathers occup musician
date of reg 30 Dec 1856
On all the info I have Louis Antony is the youngest brother it's been through him that I made the connection as his name was the same as my grandfather John jnrs son.. What exactly is a travelling musician?
this should give me something to go on .I did not search Pates just all different versions of Peets, but that looks like it could be the right one THANK YOU ALL

Christine

I searched on ancestry using p*t*s


* is a wild card that replaces 1 or more letters ........ on ancestry there have to be at least 3 letters in the name, and the *cannot be used as the first letter

so I couldn't search for p*, or p*t*, or *eets, etc


it saves having to try to think of different possible spellings


HOWEVER, that didn't bring up Pater in 1871!




Travelling musician .......... I think quite literally means a musician who travels around looking for work ............... possibly in local theatres, with local bands or orchestras, picking up jobs whereve he could. Possibly doing some teaching.



sylvia

If you try searching for giovanni+pizzo+liverpool there is this

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=124-d171&cid=-1#-1

You may already have seen it?
It states that it includes
a passport issued by the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies to Giovanni Pizzo which documents his journey from Naples through France and Belgium to Liverpool.

There is in the family search site -
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html?datestamp=1201592336948#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1708706
Index to selected Italy births and baptisms. Only a few localities are included and the time period varies by locality. This collection contains 1,940,693 records. Due to privacy laws, recent records may not be displayed. The year range represents most of the records. A few records may be earlier or later.

Giovanni Pizzo

Name: Giovanni Pizzo
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 07 Jan 1825
Birth Date: 06 Jan 1825
Birthplace: Alessandria della Rocca, Agrigento, Italy
Father's Name: Giuseppe Pizzo
Mother's Name: Carmela Castellano
Collection: Italy Births and Baptisms, 1806-1900

thank you Joy i have copies of the papers from the National Archives along with the passport and some letters also photos of Louis Antony Peets. The letters are in Italian but very hard to read however one of them is signed Guiseppe Pizzo and I had assumed that it was his father from a few parts that I could translate, As I am in Australia I have to rely on Ancestry sites, so when they run out of records I don't know where to go next. What I need is a record of him arriving in England,also from the papers I think it"s possible he had a brother Francisco Pizzo. As for Maria Weekly even having her birthplace I can't find anything.. I do appreciate your helpas I havn't been doing this very long, thanks again

I love the detective trail :-)

So the passport doesn't give a date of his arrival in Liverpool then?

If I were you now, I would post on an Italian mailing list in here
http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/ITA/
Possibly this one initially
http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/ITA/GEN-ITALIAN.html

And I shall keep hunting :-)

????
record title: Italy Deaths and Burials, 1809-1900 <<<<<
name: Giovanni Pizzo
gender: Male
death date: 16 Aug 1826
death place: Alessandria Della Rocca, Agrigento, Italy
age: 0
birth date: 1826
birthplace: Santo Stefano
father's name: Vincenzo Pizzo
mother's name: Carmela La Placa
indexing project (batch) number: B74010-3
system origin: Italy-EASy
source film number: 1438655

1901 Incoming Passengers,but dont think hes the same person..and could be a common italian name.

Arrival 12 May 1901 London,,,boared in Naples.

Giuseppe Pizzo..age 16.born abt 1885.