Genealogy Chat

I'm just going to have a look through passanger lists. I'm also going to trace the two children of Mary and James forward to see if any living relatives know anything about..anyhing.

Thsnk you very much for your helpnso far. :)

I'm just going to have a look through passanger lists. I'm also going to trace the two children of Mary and James forward to see if any living relatives know anything about..anyhing.

Thsnk you very much for your helpnso far. :)

If Sophie married William Sept qtr 1861, and by 1871 she is a widow there's no way of looking for them on a census together to establish his birth place or age bit of a b**mer.

Have you looked at passenger lists on Ancestry, their children were born Canada according to the 1871/81 census so they must have travelled between their marriage in 1861 and the birth of first son George c 1863. And she & children must have returned prior to the 1871 census

On second thoughts, if you look on IGI for births with parents George Welch/Ann Gardiner there are quite a few all from Arle House, Cheltenham where George was living on the 1881 census. But no Michaels among them. Maybe he wasn't a brother, but just another coincidence.

IF George is the brother of Michael, this could provide thier parentage:

From IGI

GEORGE ASSER WHITE WELCH Pedigree
Male
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 30 JUL 1829 British Chaplaincy, Geneve, Geneve, Switzerland

Parents:
Father: GEORGE ASSER WHITE WELCH Family
Mother: ANNE CATHERINE GARDINER

Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:

C999421 1817 - 1842 0563015 Film 0883704 Film
Sheet: 00


From National Archives (availble to download for a price!):
Description Name Welch, George A W
Rank: Captain

Date 20 October 1851
Catalogue reference ADM 196/37
Dept Records of the Admiralty, Naval Forces, Royal Marines, Coastguard, and related bodies
Series Admiralty: Officers' Service Records (Series III)
Piece Commission and Warrant Branch: Executive Officers M-Z
Image contains 1 document of many for this catalogue reference
Number of image files: 1
Image Reference Format and Version Part Number Size (KB) Number of Pages Price (£)
1292 / 523 PDF 1.2 1 277 1 3.50

May have another brother for Michael. Sophia England (Sophia's mother) is with her son-in-law on the 1881 census - so I assume his wife is Sophia's younger sister married to another Welch!

WELCH, George A W Head Married M 51 1830 Cap. R.N. Retired
Switzerland VIEW
WELCH, Mary C Wife Married F 38 1843 Wife
Cape Town VIEW
WELCH, Annie M Daughter Single F 13 1868 Scholar
Cheltenham
Gloucestershire VIEW
WELCH, Kate B Daughter Single F 9 1872 Schol
Worcester
Worcestershire VIEW
WELCH, James H Son Single M 5 1876 Schol
Cheltenham
Gloucestershire VIEW
WELCH, Margret E Daughter Single F 0 1881
Cheltenham
Gloucestershire VIEW
ENGLAND, Sophia Moth In Law Widow F 66 1815 Annuitant
Cornnew VIEW
JAMES, Mary Cook Single F 25 1856 Cook Domes Servant
Coberley
Gloucestershire VIEW
SHILE, Harriet A Servant Single F 20 1861 Nurse Domes Servant
Bristol
Gloucestershire VIEW
FLATCHER, Ellin Servant Single F 21 1860 Housemaid Domes Servant
Bishops Cleeve
Gloucestershire VIEW
RUTLAND, Annie P Servant Single F 14 1867 Kitchenmaid
Chelt VIEW
LONG, Charles Page Single M 16 1865 Page Domes Servant
Chelt VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG11 Piece:
2573 Folio:
99 Page:
17

Registration District:
Cheltenham Sub District:
Cheltenham Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Cheltenham Municipal Borough:
Address:
Arle House, Cheltenham County:
Gloucestershire

Wonder if the mother's dead husband was also Naval - they moved about a bit to have children born Ireland & Capetown. Looks like she died Bath 1888. It may be difficult to trace the family births and find Michael though, if the above is his brother born Switzerland.

Should have added that the name of the brides father on the 1890certificate is Michael Welch, so I am pretty confident of her father being Michael. It seems he was born in Ireland, so I need to find out about William now...

Ahhh thank you for that. :) I was having trouble trying to find her in 1891.

Sophia England married William Welsh in 1861 in Chard, Somerset. I am thinking of ordering the marriage certificate to see the details of William's father, but then again, I want to at least have an idea to who he is.

Atleast it explains her maiden name being Liddell in 1922. :)

Think you may need to go back to Ireland for Mary's history, her aunt was obviously educated & maybe not so likely to get confused about her neices birth place. You've found Sophia's marriage to William Welch, where was this? If you can find William's birth it may lead you to Michael and his wife & family, including Mary.

Wow, that's a coincidence, wonder if there was some family link between Thomas & James (Not brothers though),

Here she is in 1891 with James & William.

Mary Liddell
Age 22
Estimated Year of Birth 1869
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Occupation
Address 17, Cromwell Street
District Hartlepool, Hartlepool
Parish Stranton
Administrative County Durham
Birth Place Bath
Birth County Somersetshire
Other family:
James 29 blacksmith born Durham
William H 3 mths born Hartlepool

just received an email from that saying that the mother on e childrens birth certificates is Mary Elizabeth Ann Welch and Mary Elizabeth Ann Welch is the bride to James Liddell in 1890 in Hartlepool.

She married James Liddell in 1890, had a son called William Henry in 1891, a daughter called Alice Maud in 1893. Sometime between 1892 and 1895 she met Thomas Liddell and had a son, followed by several other children up until, the latest of which I am certain, 1907, including William Henry Michael in 1905 leading me to believe her first son died.

starting to make morer sense now. :)

I emailed the yesterday with the fathers name, child's name ad my Mary's first name and maiden name to see if it's a match.

:)

Manda, I have used the service on middlesbrough-indexes. They will not give you a name that's on the certificate but will confirm whether or not the name that you give them is correct.

Angela: I had no idea about that! Thank you for letting me know. :)

I have just found something interesting. I looked for James Liddell, who is present on the marriage entry for Mary in 1890 in Hartlepool. I found him in 1901 and he is 39, married with no wife living with him, with two children, William in 1891 and Alice in 1893. Thinking of ordering one of their certificates to sere who their mother is. Mary and Thomas' first child wasn't born until 1895.

Well the death for William would fit with her being a widow on the 1871 census, and both her and her mother were "women of means". It would also fit with children's births, forgot to mention but in 1871 she also son George (9) born Canada, but he wasn't with them 1881.

Thinking aloud, if Sophia's mother (Sophia snr) had funds from trust, was it her family with the money? She was from Devon, maybe worth checking wills & probate records. But then again it could have come from her husband, who we've not managed to locate yet.

Hi don't know if you already know this but www.middlesbrough-indexes.co.uk provides a service whereby they will confirm information on the certificate via online email service, they can take up to a week or next day to reply depending on how busy they are.

Hope this is of help to you.

Angela

I thought that it was a bit weird to go from a labourer to a seaman. I have sailors in both sides of my family and the rest weere in docks from a young age. I am looking into the census you found of the neice Mary living with Sopia. sophia married a gentleman by the name of William Welch but he died between 1867 and 1871.

Thank you for your help. :)

Looking at this again, I think I'd invest in the Hartlepool marriage certificate - will give their ages and fathers names/occupations and should confirm or deny that they actually married each other twice.

Could there be a military connection, navy perhaps? Just thinking about what her younger sister told you, there's normally a bit of truth in the stories if you can sift it out.

Found the census your refer to with Ellen as mother (1881), but Michael is a labourer - conflicts with the story and the 1922 marriage certificate.

The 1901 census dittos her husbands birth place, 1911 states Bath, but that may be her earliest memory - she wasn't there in 1871, but may arrived there sometime between the age of 4 and 14, or she simply didn't want to put Ireland or hadn't told her husband she was Irish.

Let us know how you get on it's an interesting one!

It certainly looks like they have married twice - wonder if there was a problem with the first marriage and they decided to do it legally? Was the 2nd marriage in a church - could they have been re-confirming their vows or getting married in the eyes of the church,catholic maybe?

If the Mary posted for 1881 census is correct, you may have more luck in Ireland by tracing Sophia England's husband, who should be brother to Mary's father to give you a lead on the family.

I'm now doubtful if she was married before - what do you think of this for her in 1881:

WELCH, Sophia A Head Widow F 44 1837 Income Derived From Fund
Ireland VIEW
WELCH, Gerty Daughter Single F 17 1864
Canada VIEW
WELCH, Maria Daughter Single F 15 1866 Scholar
Canada VIEW
WELCH, Mary Niece Single F 14 1867 Scholar
Ireland VIEW
DUNCAN, Margaret Servant Single F 25 1856 Cook
Canada VIEW
JONES, Emma Servant Single F 16 1865 Housemaid
Worcester
Worcestershire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG11 Piece:
2432 Folio:
68 Page:
2

Registration District:
Bath Sub District:
Bathwick Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Bath Bathwick Municipal Borough:
Address:
11, Darlington Pl, Bath Bathwick County:
Somersetshire

Possibly confirm the "dis-owning" story, family obviously had money. On the 1871 census you'll find Sophia's mother Sophia England (56, widow, born Irvine Devon)