Genealogy Chat

I have been tracing my family tree for about six years now. At first All my time was spent tracing my maternal line as I didn't speak to my father, I almost forget I had his side as well.

I started looking into my paternal history two years ago, using only my mother for reference to begin with, I found the birth and death records of the grandparents I never met, (rather, remember meeting). I got back to 1901, my great grandmother Emily Liddell, born in 1901 in Stockton on Tees, County Durham. This is where it gets confusing...

Emily was born on the 5th March 1901 in Housewives Lane, Stockton, Durham. To Thomas Liddell, a general labourer, and Mary Elizabeth Ann Liddell, nee Welsh/Welch. Emily's mother Mary registered her on the 17th April 1901. Emily is on the census, living with her parents.
(Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 4627; Folio: 155; Page: 19.)

Mary, is now known as Margaret. Born in 1869, in Stockton.

In 1911, Thomas Liddell, 45 is married to Mary E A Liddell ages 43. They have had a few more children and two unfortunate losses. Mary, is now born in Bath, Somerset. Married for 18 years, putting it at about 1893.

I found my nans younger sister, who would have been Mary's granddaughter. She told me that Mary was disowned by her family for 'marrying beneath herself' and that her father either built or opened a hospital in Bath, Somerset. She also told me that Mary was Irish, but she diesn't know where in Ireland she was born.

In the 1911 census they say they are married, yet, a Thomas Liddell marries a Mary E A Liddell in 1922 aged 56 and 54. Mary is classed as a widow.
The certificate gives her father as Michael Welch, a seaman.

Does anyone have a bit of advice on what I can do to try and straighten this out. I have so many questions I need answers to and I don't know where to start..

Thank you for your time,

Amanda

I found something similar in one of my trees - the couple couldn't marry until the 1st wife died.

I'd try going back in the census for Thomas Liddell, see if you can find him on earlier ones and to check if he has another family, and try the same for Mary/Margaret - probably won't be easy though due to the conflicting information.

Does Emily have older siblings you could check out?

I think Thomas is still single on 1891 census, with parents:

Thomas Liddell
Age 25
Estimated Year of Birth 1866
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Occupation Farm Servant
Address 32, Norfolk Street
District Stockton, Stockton
Parish Stockton On Tees
Administrative County Durham
Birth Place Stockton
Birth County Durham
Others in household:
Thomas 52 Cabinet Maker born Hetton
Bessie 50 Stockton
Charles 27 Stockton
Harry 12 Newport
Mary E 6 Stockton

Thomas was the only one registered Stockton over a 5 year period:

Births Dec 1865 (>99%)
Liddell Thomas Stockton 10a 87

Can't see a marriage for him 1891-1901 in Stockton, so maybe it was Mary that was already married - can't see a birth for her in Bath under the names given.

There were four children older than Emily. Thomas Sidney, who is a mystery, Margaret and Henrietta who were twins born in the Workhouse asnd Elsie May.

There is a marriage on FreeBMD of a Mary Elizabeth A Welch marrying a Jamea Liddell that I find interesting, if Mary did marry James Liddell before hand, it would give a reasonable explanation as to why her married name was Liddell in 1922.

Also, I feel I should have said me and a few cousins I have come across during my reasearch have never been able to find a death date for Mary.

Thank you for replyng!
Manda

I can't find a birth location for her anywhere, Stockton, Bath or Ireland are the only places she has listed. I'm pretty confident her father is a Michael Welch. The witnesses of her marriage were Michael and Jane Dolan.

I have found Mary Welch on a census, born in 1868 with Michael as her father and her mother is Ellen, I just want to find out about her marriage(s) more than anytng at the moment.

Manda

I'm now doubtful if she was married before - what do you think of this for her in 1881:

WELCH, Sophia A Head Widow F 44 1837 Income Derived From Fund
Ireland VIEW
WELCH, Gerty Daughter Single F 17 1864
Canada VIEW
WELCH, Maria Daughter Single F 15 1866 Scholar
Canada VIEW
WELCH, Mary Niece Single F 14 1867 Scholar
Ireland VIEW
DUNCAN, Margaret Servant Single F 25 1856 Cook
Canada VIEW
JONES, Emma Servant Single F 16 1865 Housemaid
Worcester
Worcestershire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG11 Piece:
2432 Folio:
68 Page:
2

Registration District:
Bath Sub District:
Bathwick Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Bath Bathwick Municipal Borough:
Address:
11, Darlington Pl, Bath Bathwick County:
Somersetshire

Possibly confirm the "dis-owning" story, family obviously had money. On the 1871 census you'll find Sophia's mother Sophia England (56, widow, born Irvine Devon)

It certainly looks like they have married twice - wonder if there was a problem with the first marriage and they decided to do it legally? Was the 2nd marriage in a church - could they have been re-confirming their vows or getting married in the eyes of the church,catholic maybe?

If the Mary posted for 1881 census is correct, you may have more luck in Ireland by tracing Sophia England's husband, who should be brother to Mary's father to give you a lead on the family.

Looking at this again, I think I'd invest in the Hartlepool marriage certificate - will give their ages and fathers names/occupations and should confirm or deny that they actually married each other twice.

Could there be a military connection, navy perhaps? Just thinking about what her younger sister told you, there's normally a bit of truth in the stories if you can sift it out.

Found the census your refer to with Ellen as mother (1881), but Michael is a labourer - conflicts with the story and the 1922 marriage certificate.

The 1901 census dittos her husbands birth place, 1911 states Bath, but that may be her earliest memory - she wasn't there in 1871, but may arrived there sometime between the age of 4 and 14, or she simply didn't want to put Ireland or hadn't told her husband she was Irish.

Let us know how you get on it's an interesting one!

I thought that it was a bit weird to go from a labourer to a seaman. I have sailors in both sides of my family and the rest weere in docks from a young age. I am looking into the census you found of the neice Mary living with Sopia. sophia married a gentleman by the name of William Welch but he died between 1867 and 1871.

Thank you for your help. :)

Hi don't know if you already know this but www.middlesbrough-indexes.co.uk provides a service whereby they will confirm information on the certificate via online email service, they can take up to a week or next day to reply depending on how busy they are.

Hope this is of help to you.

Angela

Well the death for William would fit with her being a widow on the 1871 census, and both her and her mother were "women of means". It would also fit with children's births, forgot to mention but in 1871 she also son George (9) born Canada, but he wasn't with them 1881.

Thinking aloud, if Sophia's mother (Sophia snr) had funds from trust, was it her family with the money? She was from Devon, maybe worth checking wills & probate records. But then again it could have come from her husband, who we've not managed to locate yet.

Angela: I had no idea about that! Thank you for letting me know. :)

I have just found something interesting. I looked for James Liddell, who is present on the marriage entry for Mary in 1890 in Hartlepool. I found him in 1901 and he is 39, married with no wife living with him, with two children, William in 1891 and Alice in 1893. Thinking of ordering one of their certificates to sere who their mother is. Mary and Thomas' first child wasn't born until 1895.

Manda, I have used the service on middlesbrough-indexes. They will not give you a name that's on the certificate but will confirm whether or not the name that you give them is correct.

I emailed the yesterday with the fathers name, child's name ad my Mary's first name and maiden name to see if it's a match.

:)

just received an email from that saying that the mother on e childrens birth certificates is Mary Elizabeth Ann Welch and Mary Elizabeth Ann Welch is the bride to James Liddell in 1890 in Hartlepool.

She married James Liddell in 1890, had a son called William Henry in 1891, a daughter called Alice Maud in 1893. Sometime between 1892 and 1895 she met Thomas Liddell and had a son, followed by several other children up until, the latest of which I am certain, 1907, including William Henry Michael in 1905 leading me to believe her first son died.

starting to make morer sense now. :)

Wow, that's a coincidence, wonder if there was some family link between Thomas & James (Not brothers though),

Here she is in 1891 with James & William.

Mary Liddell
Age 22
Estimated Year of Birth 1869
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Occupation
Address 17, Cromwell Street
District Hartlepool, Hartlepool
Parish Stranton
Administrative County Durham
Birth Place Bath
Birth County Somersetshire
Other family:
James 29 blacksmith born Durham
William H 3 mths born Hartlepool

Think you may need to go back to Ireland for Mary's history, her aunt was obviously educated & maybe not so likely to get confused about her neices birth place. You've found Sophia's marriage to William Welch, where was this? If you can find William's birth it may lead you to Michael and his wife & family, including Mary.

Ahhh thank you for that. :) I was having trouble trying to find her in 1891.

Sophia England married William Welsh in 1861 in Chard, Somerset. I am thinking of ordering the marriage certificate to see the details of William's father, but then again, I want to at least have an idea to who he is.

Atleast it explains her maiden name being Liddell in 1922. :)

Should have added that the name of the brides father on the 1890certificate is Michael Welch, so I am pretty confident of her father being Michael. It seems he was born in Ireland, so I need to find out about William now...