Genealogy Chat

Wow, thanks very much Jennifer. Where did you get the burial record from? I'm thinking now that it probably is him. I think you're probably right about the wills too. Will certainly let you know what Elizabeth Letitia's birth certificate says. I'll send you a personal message by clicking on your user name when I get it, if that's OK with you?
Thanks so much for your help and interest.
Take care
Christine

Name: Joseph Benjamin Chesney
Record Type: Burial
Estimated Death Date: abt 1849
Burial Date: 25 Jul 1849
Age: 62
Estimated birth year: abt 1787
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bermondsey St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Southwark
County: Surrey

Address Bermondsy Workhouse

Hi Christine, I was thinking about this last night (I know, I should get out more!)

I think you are right about the birth dates on the baptism and the vicar got it wrong.

I think the Wills relate to Joseph born 1822 (the son of Joseph senior) and the 1914 one to his son with Jane born 1845.

I get wills from here;
they cost £5

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/pa1s_0405.pdf


I do believe that the Joseph who died in 1849 and was in the workhouse was the father of your Elizabeth, she just didn't say when she married that he was deceased. Have you noticed that on the 1841 it says that Joseph and his wife Ann are not born in County and also that they had a daughter called Letitia.

Look forward to hearing the result from the birth cert

Jennifer

Hi again
Thanks for the additional info Jennifer and Kay. I had some of it but not all.
I think the baptism of Elizabeth Letitia and her brother Benjamin Joseph on 1 June 1849 relate to them but the vicar made a mistake and put the years as 1833 and 1837 instead of 1843 and 1847. The rest of the dates are correct i.e. Eliz was definitely born on 26 July (which I should confirm when I get her birth cert) and her brother Benjamin on 19 July

Ii is also clear that there was a Joseph Chesney who married twice and he had a son Joseph from his first marriage who married Jane Hulkes. Joseph the elder's second wife was Elizabeth Russell/Pierce who was also onto her second marriage with him.
But what is not clear to me is whether this Joseph and wife Elizabeth are the parents of my Elizabeth Letitia and Benjamin Joseph. It looks likely as Joseph (the elder) died in 1849 just a few weeks after the children were baptised (maybe he was ill and knew he was dying), and they were already in the workhouse at the time of the baptism BUT my doubts stem from the fact that this Joseph (the elder) never seems to be called Benjamin (on any of his two marriages, censuses, death etc) whereas her father is called Benjamin on her marriage cert. Also, as you pointed out, Jennifer, he is not recorded as deceased when she married in 1869.

Interesting the two records you found regarding the later wills. The first one (aged 73) would be about the right age to be Elizabeth Letitia's father but I suppose if he had ANY money/effects at all, his family wouldn't have gone into the workhouse earlier (unless he got the money later). Hang on a minute, though! Could this be her father and the other one who died 19 years later be her brother?? The one who died in 1914 aged 69 would have been born in 1845 and her brother was born in 1847 but ages were often a couple of years out weren't they? And if so, how did they end up in Sussex? How do I follow up things in wills/probate - have never looked into that before? Sorry for the long ramble but you've really given me some leads!

Thanks so much again.
Christine

The IGI at Familysearch.org


Joseph Chesney
marriage
19th June 1842 St Dunstans Stepney
Elizabeth Russell or Pearce.
Its extracted from Parish Registers.

this looks like it could be a second marriage for Elizabeth?

Just out of interest I found the following wills/probate

Deaths Sep 1895
Chesney Joseph Benjamin 73 Steyning 2b 172

Name: Joseph Benjamin Chesney
Probate Date: 20 Sep 1895
Death Date: 31 Jul 1895
Death Place: Sussex, England
Registry: London

Address: 2 Norfolk Terrace, Southwick Sussex
To Joseph Benjamin Chesney/printer
Effects £ 254 19 11


And

Deaths Jun 1914
Chesney Joseph B 69 Steyning 2b 339


Name: Joseph Benjamin Chesney
Probate Date: 27 Jan 1915
Death Date: 19 Apr 1914
Death Place: Sussex, England
Registry: London
Address 4 Coastguard Cottages , Southwick, Sussex
Administration with will to William Ransonm Wenban, Bank Manager
Effects; £924

I looked at the image for the baptisms of Elizabeth Letitia and Benjamin Chesney,1 June 1849 The address is given as Workhouse.

there is a column for when born:
Elizabeth Letitia is 26 July 1833
Benjamin is 19 July 1837

so now I am even more confused. don't know about you!

you probably have this but I'll post anyway
1841
Name: Joseph Chesney / Printer
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1791
Gender: Male

Civil Parish: St Mary Magdalen Bermondsey
Hundred: Brixton (Eastern Division)
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England


Registration district: St Mary Magdalen Bermondsey
Sub-registration district: Leather Market
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Chesney 50
Ann Chesney 50
Louisa Chesney 25
Letitia Chesney 20
Joseph Chesney 19 /Printer
Alfred Chesney 16
Henry Chesney 12
George Chesney 9

Death

Deaths Mar 1842
CHESNEY Ann Elizabeth Bermondsey 4 16


so it looks as if it was the older Joseph who married Elizabeth and the younger one who married Jane

1851
Name: Joseph Chesney /printer
Age: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1822
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Jane Chesney
Gender: Male
Where born: Ewel, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Rotherhithe
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Registration district: Rotherhithe
Sub-registration district: Rotherhithe
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 21
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Chesney 29
Jane Chesney 35 wife
Jane Chesney 7
Joseph Chesney 6
Alfred Chesney 3
Maria Chesney 1
Ann Maria Hawkins 40

then the death of Joseph senior
Deaths Sep 1849
Chesney Joseph Benjamin Bermondsey 4 74

have a good evening

Jennifer

so there are 2 marriages :

Name: Joseph Chesney
Age: Full Age
Estimated birth year: abt 1842
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Russell
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 19 Jun 1842
Parish: St Dunstan and All Saints, Stepney
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Robert Chesney
Spouse Father Name: William Pearce

and

Name: Joseph Benjamin Chesney
Age: Full Age
Estimated birth year: abt 1843
Spouse Name: Jane Hulkes
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 23 Apr 1843
Parish: St Alphege, Greenwich
County: Kent
Borough: Greenwich
Father Name: Joseph Benjamin Chesney
Spouse Father Name: Jane Hulkes
as the second one is after the first one perhaps he is the son of the older Joseph who is a widower. Both their occupations are given as Printer

Ah, good point, RutlandBelle! This could be the lead I'm looking for (fact that it doesn't say her father is deceased so might not be the same one!). Yes, I have an Emma Bagley on my tree. She is the niece of William Andrew Birch who Eliz Letitia married. But where do I go from here?!
By the way, I have to go somewhere now so won't be back on here until late tonight but if you have any inspiration, it would be very welcome! Thanks for your help.

Hi again, on the marr cert for Elizabeth as you say it has her father as Benjamin Joseph Chesney and a witness has the same name. it doesn't actually say her father is deceased though and on another marriage on the same page the vicar has written deceased by the parent's names.

The other witness is Emma Bagley , does the name mean anything?

RutlandBelle - I agree this looks like further evidence!
Safc - it's a shame that the marr that you found doesn't include the name Benjamin (either first or middle name) as that would confirm it for me. I suppose they don't always include both names on a marr. cert. but on Elizabeth Letitia's it said father's name Benjamin Chesney! If there is no further evidence on EL's birth cert, I guess I'll have to conclude that this marriage does relate to her parents then.
Thanks!

Groom's Name: Joseph Chesney
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Elizabeth Russell Or Pearce
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 19 Jun 1842
Marriage Place: Saint Dunstan,Stepney,London,England
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name:
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M05576-5
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 801585
Reference Number:
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

On thmarriage cert of Elizabeth Letitia it does say her father is a Compositor which is I think the same as a printer

Hi
Thanks so much for your help. Some of this has been kindly checked before by other people on the site (on an earlier thread) so I don't want people to duplicate this or get annoyed! The Eliz Letitia Chesney who got baptised on 1 June 48 is indeed my ancestor, but I think the marriage of JB Chesney to Jane Hulkes and the baptism of their son JB Chesney born in 1846 and baptised on 7 June 46 relates to a son of the first marriage I mentioned. It doesn't help that they all have the same or similar names! Eliz was baptised with her bro, also called Benjamin Joseph on the same date (1 June 48), but I'd like to get her cert to be sure her father is the one who died a few months later that year. Her mother should be Elizabeth too (Russell/Pierce). I'll certainly order the certificate to check. My only doubt is that on her marr certificate to William Andrew Birch it says her father is Benjamin Joseph not Joseph Benjamin.
Thanks again everyone!

In answer to your earlier question, certs from the GRO are 9.25 sent to anywhere in the world.

Certs from the local RO are £9.00, which may or may not include postage, which some charge extra. Check with the individual RO, most have a page on the internet.

As far as how long it takes, bit like measuring a piece of string.

Normally the GRO send out within a few days, but can take longer if they are busy, eg. when Who do You Think You Are? is on the telly.

Local RO's can vary too. Small ones are usually same or next day, larger ones can be much longer and some will only guarantee within 28 days for genealogical research purposes.

Again, check on the internet or phone to find out.

hope we are not barking up the wrong tree:
marriage;

Name: Joseph Benjamin Chesney
Age: Full Age
Estimated birth year: abt 1843
Spouse Name: Jane Hulkes
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 23 Apr 1843
Parish: St Alphege, Greenwich
County: Kent
Borough: Greenwich
Father Name: Joseph Benjamin Chesney
Spouse Father Name: Jane Hulkes

Both men are Printers but it says Joseph is a bachelor

Name: Elizabeth Letitia Chesney
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 01 Jun 1849
Baptism/Christening Place: St. Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Joseph Benjamin Chesney
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Chesney
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C01043-0
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 254560
Reference Number: yr 1848-1852 p 198
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

there is this baptism
father's occ is Printer

Name: Joseph Benjamin Chesney
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1846
Baptism Date: 7 Jun 1846
Father's name: Joseph Benjamin Chesney
Mother's name: Jane Chesney
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bermondsey St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Southwark

If you want to give some names and birth dates I can have look on London Baptism and Marriages for you

Jennifer