Genealogy Chat

Hi All. Was hoping somebody can help me in this query. . In accordance to A.C.I 1912-1916, Operation Allowance has been paid in respect of the undermentioned man who is to be discharged 23.2.1917

So what does operation allowance mean, and why only paid for Jesse and not the other kids????

The mentioned man is John Henry Rumsey and the child listed was Jesse Roland.
John Henry had other children,Jesse was the youngest of them all.
Thanks Lisa

Need some more info. here as I'm not seeing this man on Ancestry or his son.

Is this for the US? How old was Jesse at the time?

Rose

Hi Rose.

John Henry was born in Cardiff 1874, he was married to Elizabeth (Nee Weir)

Their first son also John Henry was born 1896c in Ebbw Vale, (according to the 1901 Census)

In the service records, he states that Jesse Roland was born 17 June 1915. Birthplace i really dont know;-(

Thanks Lisa.

Not seeing a marriage for them of Jesse's birth.

Rose

All the children are under Ramsey.


Births Mar 1913
Ramsey William T Weir Atcham 6a 1112

Births Sep 1914

Ramsey Margaret Weir Atcham 6a 1132

I wonder if Jesse is illegitimate?

Rose

Hi Rose.

John Henry and Elizabeth were married in Belfast in 1895. But by the 1901 England/Wales Census they are in Ebbw Vale, where they state first son was born.

John Henry was according to war records in Galliopli between 1915-17c.

Thanks Lisa

What's his regimental number?

Rose

Yes Rose....i had thought that Jesse may have been illegimate, but i cant seem to even locate a death record for him either.

Jeeezzzzz elusive rellies eh,lol.

x

British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
about John Henry Ramsey Name: John Henry Ramsey
Age at enlistment: 19
Birth Parish: Kinson
Birth County: Dorset
Regimental Number: ??47??
Regiment Name: Dorset Reg??
Number of Images: 43

The Reg Number.....not showing all am afraid;-(

I have a problem

are you sure that all those pages in the army record are for the same guy

I'm wondering if records for at leasdt 2 soldiers have been mixed up



You say that John Henry Ramsey was born ca 1874 in CARDIFF

BUT the John Henry Ramsey on those WW1 records, says he was born in KINSON, DORSET


Looking at the actual images

p2. his first regimental number was 4247

then he obviously moved to another regiment .......... second number could be 9xx2 ... CORRECTION, 7302


...... he seems to have enlisted in 1893. He then Deserted on 18-12-1895

He re-enlisted (Rejoined from Desertion) 26-9-1914


He was 18 when he enlisted the first time


The second regimental number on a later page is 7302


on a further page, his discharge in 1917, it says his

discharge address is Garm View, Eureka Place, Ebbw Vale, Mon.

Father:- John Henry Ramsey, Kinson (unreadable word), Dorset

Mother:- Mary

Wife:- 143 Glen. Frankwell, Shewsbury

Elizabeth Weir, Spinster, Belfast, married 12-8-95, Witnesses:- John Miller and E. Weir


10 Children:-
Elizabeth Cecily
Ellen Winifrede
Veronica
Mary
Mary Agnes
Joseph
Ambrose James
Norah Clare (???second name)
William (???)
Nancy (??? almost indecipherable)


Then there's a page, dated 1917...........

address:- 36 Western Terrace, Ebbw Vale
Date of Birth:- July 22 1873
Place of Birth:- Roath Parish, Cardiff, Glamorganshire
Trade on enlistment:- Hay Trusser




I just don't understand the variation in birth places and fathers




sylvia

I think they are all for the same man. The regimental numbers match with his medal card and his father was born in Kinson:

1881 Wales Census
about John Rumsey
Name: John Rumsey
Age: 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Rumsey
Gender: Male
Where born: Kinson, Dorset, England

Civil Parish: Roath
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales

Street address: 8 Milton Street
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: General Labourer

Registration district: Cardiff
Sub-registration district: Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel: 32
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Rumsey 31
Mary Rumsey 26
John Henry Rumsey 6
Thomas Edwin Rumsey 5
Mary Bridget Rumsey 1


It looks like he left his family in Shropshire.

Rose

From a tree on Ancestry:

"John Henry Rumsey/Ramsey - A life on the run

We now know that that John Henry(My Great Grandfather)) deserted from the Army whilst serving in Ireland during 1895. He left having met an Irish Catholic called Elisabeth Best or Weir, whom he married shortly before deserting. My mother who is now 80 told me that because he was on the run, he always told his children that he had married Elisabeth Best using an assumed name called " Long". My mother had no idea why that particular name was used.

With this information I looked at the 1881 Census in Cardiff and found there are no Ramsey's but there is a Rumsey family. They have a son John Henry aged about 7. His mothers maiden name is "LONG". We know John Henry was originally from Cardiff, this is corroborated by my mother, who remembers meeting JH'S younger brother Jimmy a few times, who was also from Cardiff and a pidgeon fancier. In the 1901 census, John Henry and Elisabeth are living as man and wife in Shrewsbury. He give his birthplace as Cardiff and his birth year abt 1874. He has 3 children including a young John Henry(my Grandfather). T

The census notes that he was 5 yrs old and born in Ebbw Vale abt 1896.( a search of the GRO for births for any John Henry Ramsey born in Wales in this period is negative). His father clearly invented a whole new family history to prevent being arrested as a deserter.

Searching the Births Deaths and Marriages index and GRO Index. There is no record of a John Henry RAmsey being born in Cardiff. Further research discovers that John Henry Ramsey** had served in the Merchant Navy, and had met my mother briefly in the mid 1940's whilst she was working at the Lion Hotel Shrewsbury. He had visited the town, whilst on leave from his ship.

A search at Kew discovered his merchant seamans ID card from about 1921 in the name of RAMSEY, which included a photo of him. My mother positively identified him as the person she met at the Lion. There is a distinct family likeness. The card also yields John Henry RAMSEYS birth date as 22/07/1874 I then applied for the birth Cert of John Henry RUMSEY** from Cardiff. The birth date was 22/07/1874. The dates were the same, It is likely to be the same person. At this stage I have no idea why he settled in Shrewsbury. Its possible that his son Jack Ramsey was also born in Ireland.

Although Irish records still need to be checked. My mother also mentioned that he later left Elizabeth Best, and possibly lived in the North East of England. She remained in Shrewsbury and is buried in Shrewsbury Cemetery "

Rose

There's a death for him in Hull that fits.

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about John H Ramsey
Name: John H Ramsey
Death Registration Month/Year: 1947
Age at death (estimated): 73
Registration district: Hull
Inferred County: Yorkshire East Riding
Volume: 2a
Page: 281

Also ties in with the story of him living in the North East.

Rose

More notes from that tree:

"15/11/189 3 John attends at the Barracks Dorchester and signs up for a Short Service engagement with the Dorset Regiment. He agrees to serve 5yrs with the colour’s and a further 7yrs on reserve.

On his attestation paper he states he is is 19yrs old, and employed as a labourer. He states he is living in Kinson Dorset (remember he was born in Cardiff). He confirms that he has previous military service with the Dorset Militia (TA).

He uses the name RAMSEY to sign up, although the family name is RUMSEY and describes himself as Church of England.

He is described as of fair complexion with brown eyes and dark brown hair. He is 5" 5 1/8 inches tall and weighs 116 pounds. He has the figure of a woman with a flag and a pierced heart tattooed on his body.

16/03/1894

Posted to the 2nd Bn Dorset Regiment who are based in Belfast

12/08/1895

He marries Elisabeth Weir at Belfast. The marriage is officiated by HE Betts.

18/12/1895

Deserted from the battalion

26/09/1914

Rejoined the regiment from desertion at the Regimental Depot of the Dorset Regiment. He had been absent for 19 years.

30/09/1914 until 28/8/1915 ExForce(possibly expeditionary force)

It’s possible that during this period he was completing a prison sentence in the UK, for his desertion. We will have to recheck his service record, when it is released in digital format later this year.

29/08/1915 - He arrives at Gallipoli

His Medal Index Card shows that he first entered the Balkans on 29/08/1915, thus entitling him to the 1914-15 Star Medal trio. This service would have been with the 5th Bn Dorsetshire Regiment, part of the 11th (Northern) Division, who had arrived in the Balkans on 11/07/1915 and landed at Suvla Bay on 07/08/1915.

He could perhaps have been sick, missing the first transport, arriving later with reinforcement’s.

According to the Dorset Regiment Roll, two other men also entered the same theatre of war on that date. He was not on Gallipoli long - less than 4 months, as the Division withdrew to Egypt on 21/12/1915.

03/07/1916 - He arrives at France & Flanders. He remains there until 24/08/1916

The 5th Division arrived in France, landing at Marseille in July 1916. His return to the UK was most likely due to sickness. The 5th Bn Dorset Regiment were to get a mauling on the Somme in their attack on Mouquet Farm on 26/09/1916, so it also probably saved him.

25/08/1916

He returns to the UK and eventually is transferred to the 2/4 Northants Regiment, this is a TA unit and is on Home Service. John does not return to the battlefields.

In January 1917 he is transferred to The Ebbw Vale Steel, Iron and Coal Works Ltd, Ebbw Vale. He is to complete War Work there. He is listed as No Longer Physically Fit For War Service and discharged from the army with an Enlarged Gland in his left thigh.( He possibly went to Ebbw Vale because of family connections)

On discharge his character is listed as Very Good
Pension

On the 20th July 1917 he was awarded an army pension paid weekly at a rate of 6/3 shillings 3 and fivepence.

Interesting Notes

On his discharge from the Army in early 1917, I can glean the following information from his discharge paper.

NOK – Wife 143 Glen, Frankwell Shrewsbury

His Address – Garm View Eureka Place, Ebbw Vale ( He was completing war work). Ebbw Vale is significant. In the 1901 census he stated that his eldest son John Henry(Jack the town crier) was born there. We have not been able to find that birth,…yet.

The discharge papers contain an area for details of marriage and children.

Although difficult to read it appears that his wifes maiden name was Elisabeth Weir (as opposed to BEST), and they were married in Belfast on the 12/08/1895. She was described as a spinster. There is also mention of a John Miller and E Weir. They may have been witnesses or the names used by John and Elisabeth to get married. Another person is listed H R Betts. I believe this may be the Marriage Registrar.

He also lists his children. In this order Elisabeth Cecily, Ellen Winifrede, Veronica, Mary, Mary Agnes, Joseph, Ambrose James and Nora. Eight in total.

On another Army Form in 1917, there is also another child listed, Jesse Roland born 17/06/1916. This child may be from Elisabeth or from another female.

He was finally given a Kings Discharge from all forms of service on the 26/08/1918. At this point he was still living in Ebbw Vale."

Rose

I'm sure it's not just a coincidence he rejoined right around the time Jesse was conceived.

Rose

Hi Rose


certainly what you found fitted with what I found

The name in those Army records flips back and forth from Ramsey to Rumsey ....... it was under Rumsey that Jesse Roland was mentioned.


One point ..... that discharge where his conduct was described as Very Good?

It looked to me as though Very Good had been crossed out and Fair substituted!




sylvia

Hi Sylvia,

Odd that he doesn't list his eldest son in his service records.

Possibly the son's birth:

Births Sep 1896
Long John Henry Bedwelty 11a 110

He is listed as 14 in 1911.

Rose

Hi Rose and Sylvia.

Many thanks for loking.

Yes thats my family. And its the oldest and youngest sons John and Jesse that i am having trouble locating the births for to get the certs.

Thanks again for time;-)

Lisa x

Lisa,

I think I found the eldest's birth. See my last posting.

Rose

Hi Rose.

Yes i realised after i had said my Thank you posting.

The cert is in the process of being ordered as we speak;-)

So once again Thank you very much.

Lisa x