Genealogy Chat

I think Jean meant that Hannah was the first-born of John C and Sarah Stanley, and we have found suitable information that his father was William. There is a William who marries Mary Ann Lewis, he dies in 1834 and she remarries John Lane, with whom John and his sister Mary Ann and Phoebe are living in 1841.

If that is the right John, of course.

We are then thrown into confusion by the person notifying the birth of little Hannah as being Hannah, mother, and I'd run with that being a mistake by the registrar. Where did you get the certificate from Jean? If from the GRO be aware that their records are open to error, as the original registration would have been at the local registry office, who sent quarterly returns to the GRO from which the GRO then compiled their own records from which the information is taken when a certificate is issued. I'd be tempted to contact the local register office, tell them you have already bought a certificate from the GRO and could they confirm that it is incorrect and the informant was Sarah Carragon, not Hannah. Most local offices will do this without charge. If you are right, you can then go back to the GRO and ask for a replacement certificate.

So, back to John b 1828, it is more than likely his parents are William and Mary Ann, but in view of the slight doubt I would get his marriage certificate to double-check witnesses. You might find that one is John or Mary Ann Lane.

Just to clarify, you said.


so i concluded that John William's father was John Carigan c1828

Now,
The birth certificate i have is for Hannah, John William's
first born child

Hannah isn't John william's 1st born as he himself wasn't born until 1856/7.

I still think that the mistake has been made with the registrar writing Hannah instead of Sarah.

If Sarah couldn't read or write then she wouldn't have known.


I think you should obtain a copy of the marriage cert for John and Sarah to see if the witnesses give any clues.

It's such an unusual name that it does seem as if the marriage for William to Mary Ann Lewis could be correct.



Does this record you mention have the name Hannah spouse?

On family search records i have found a William Carigan, DOB unknown- (spouse Hannah)- death 1834 Kidderminster


Christine

Oh dear i seem to be confusing everyone, including myself.
to try and clarify-
I do not have a marriage certificate for John Carrigan c1828 but have found a marriage on ancestry for a John Carigan marrying Sarah Stanley in 1851 Bridgnorth Salop

What i do have is a marriage certificate for his son John William Caragan c1856.
On this certificate John William has his fathers name as John Caragan,( it does not say deceased)

so i concluded that John William's father was John Carigan c1828

Now,
The birth certificate i have is for Hannah, John William's
first born child
Reads as Follows
1) Where and when born-
Twenty first May 1853 Mill St Kidderminster

2)Name, if any-
Hannah

3) Sex-
Girl

4)Name and surname of father-
John Carragan

5)Name ,surname and maiden name of mother-
Sarah Carragan formerly Stanley

6)Occupation of father-
Hawker

7)Signature,description and residence of informant-
x the mark of Hannah Carrragon, mother, Mill St Kidderminster.

8)When registered-
Sixteenth june 1853

I conclude from this, that Hannah is the mother of John William ,not baby Hannah, and she has misunderstood the question asked.

From the certificate it sayes to me that Sarah is definatley the mother, not Hannah.

On family search records i have found a William Carigan, DOB unknown- (spouse Hannah)- death 1834 Kidderminster

Now i'm thinking i have-
John William Carigan c1856
parents
John CarrIgan c1828 and Sarah Stanley c1833
Are Johns( c1828) parents William and Hannah Carragon? or am i completely on the wrong track?

This is the first stumbling block i've encountered that i cannot solve, its the variations of the name that have been a problem, i may have gone off on a tangent because of this.
Jean

What's John address when he marries and who are the witnesses?

Rose

I am a bit confused on this. You have the birth certificate of Hannah Corrigan born 1853. There is a space on the certificate for Name, Surname and Maiden Surname of mother. What does it say there? Presumably Sarah Corrigan formerly Stanley - is that right?

And later there is a space for the informant of the birth, what exactly does that say? You imply that it says Hannah, mother. Hannah who? What is her surname? Corrigan? Stanley?

Please clarify, or I am stuck!!!

If the cert states Hannah, mother then Hannah should mean the mother of the child.

I think a mistake was made with the mother's name.

If Hannah was John's mother it would state grandmother for the informant.

I have been looking at the image again for 1841 and the Cadogan children were in the same household as.

John Lane 35
Mary Ann Lane 35
Charles 5
Sarah 2.

I think that probably William died and Mary Ann then married John Lane.

The 1841 doesn't give relationships.

Here are the same family in 1851 at the same address.


1851 England Census
about Mary Lane
Name: Mary Lane
Age: 47
Estimated birth year: abt 1804
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: John
Gender: Female
Where born: Whitbourne, Herefordshire, England

Civil parish: Kidderminster
Ecclesiastical parish: Wribbenhall
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England


Registration district: Kidderminster
Sub-registration district: Kidderminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 2f
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 11
Household Members:
Name Age
John Lane 49
Mary Lane 47
Sarah Lane 14
Charles Lane 12
Betsey Lane 5


Christine

Does the certificate state Sarah is the mother of the child?

I would take your information to read that the baby's mother registered the child's birth.


Gwyn

Yes it does Christine, it reads- x-the mark of Hannah Carragon, Mother, Mill St, Kidderminster.
This is also the address where baby Hannah was born.

Does the birth cert actually state that Hannah who registered the birth is the grandmother?

What are the addresses on the marriage cert and birth of Hannah?

Christine

Sorry-sent that before i had finished writing,
Just wondering if i have missed something that is staring me in the face, cant see the wood for the trees syndrome.
I am so grateful you have all given me your time and help, i'll keep plodding on regardless,
many thanks
Jean

Safc.
Yes you are spot on, John is my gt gt Grandfather, i have that info from the 1861 census onwards, its Johns siblings and parents William and Hannah i cannot find. Even if it was my William who died in 1834, we know Hannah was alive in 1853 because she registered grandaughers birth, no sign of her in the 1841/1851 census, (i have tracked Sarah Stanleys family back to 1763)

Christine,
Sadly its not him, as that William is married to Mary Anne
Lewis, thats the one my "experts" found, (you should turn profesional finding that one.)

Possible marriage for the parents.


WILLIAM CADOGAN Pedigree
Male Family

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

Marriages:
Spouse: MARY ANNE LEWIS Family
Marriage:
16 NOV 1823 Pensax, Worcester, England

Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.

Pensax is 7 miles from Bewdley.

Christine

Baptism for Phoebe.

PHOEBE CADOGAN Pedigree
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
06 OCT 1830 Ribbesford, Worcester, England
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: WILLIAM CADOGAN Family
Mother: MARY ANN

Ribbesford is between Bewdley and Stourport.

Christine

I think this could be him in 1841 but it doesn't really help.

Address is Catchem's End which is Bewdley.


1841 England Census
about John Cadogan
Name: John Cadogan
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Gender: Male
Where born: Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: Kidderminster
Hundred: Halfshire (Lower Division)
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Kidderminster
Sub-registration district: Kidderminster
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Ann Cadogan 15
John Cadogan 12
Phoebe Cadogan 10

Christine

Groom's Name: John Carrigan
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Sarah Stanley
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 28 Dec 1851
Marriage Place: St. Leonards, Bridgnorth, Shropshire, England
Groom's Father's Name: William Carrigan
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name: Thomas Stanley
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status: Single
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M01878-4
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1526892
Reference Number: Pg 100, No 200
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

Hello everyone, firstly, thank you all for your replies,
Chris-i think the two experts just concentrated on Bewdley registrations, as that was all i asked them to do, i will try the site you suggested.
These are all the details i have so far,
John Carigan (Callaghan) c1828-1904 born Bewdley? as on the 1861 census
Married to Sarah Stanley c1833-c1898 born Kidderminster.
Marriage 1851 Bridgnorth, registered as Caragan
Children-
Hannah Corragan 1853 born kidderminster
Mary Carragan 1855 born Kidderminster
John Corragon 1856 born Dudley
I have details from John and Sarahs first childs birth certificate. (Hannah)

Hannahs birth was registered by Johns mother also Hannah, (maiden name unknown)

I have found a death for a William Carigan 1834 Kidderminster-could be Johns father? as there is a William in every generation onwards

John and Sarah then move to Dudley Worcs after the birth of Mary, they remain there until their deaths.

Variations of the name "Callaghan"
Carrigan/ Carigan/Carragan/Corragon/Corrogon/Callagan/Caragan/Coragan/Callahan

Have also tried replacing the C with a K.

I thought of sending for John and Hannahs marriage certificate but it wont give me any more information about his family but if anyone thinks it will help, i will.
Thank You
Jean

Please bear with me, i've typed the details twice, pressed preview and its disappeared on both occasions, so thats an whole hour wasted.
Need to go to bed now, i have to get up early, but will put details on as soon i get back home tomorrow evening. wont press preview button next time.
Thanks for your patience
Talk Tomorrow
Jean x

He gives his place of birth as Bewdley

Well that could just be the place he remembered as having being brought up in... Not where he was actually born.

I was always taught that I should investigate parishes within a 20 mile radius of a 'suggested' birthplace....Working from the named parish and moving out...Did the two professional geneologists you employed do something similar?

Using Parloc

http://www.parloc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

A 20 mile radius gives 343 parishes.

But you can use the 'List parishes within a radius of' facility to hopefully narrow it down.

Chris

Put the details on here and we will try to help.

Me again,
Just done a search on family search/family search records,
nothing there, there is a death in 1834 Kidderminster for who i think could be his father,
Not sure if that would help me though.
Jean