Genealogy Chat

Thankyou Margaret and Rose for the continued support! My uncle says the whole thing is rubbish, as Mary Ann was definitely Hebden as in his sister's middle name and in any case what interest is it to anybody what happened all those years ago!! He thinks I should give all this up now as I've wasted quite enough time and money! He knows loads about the family ( whether right or wrong! ) and will answer a direct question, but volunteer absolutely nothing. If I tell you that I spent months trying to get info from him about my grandmother and her family and struggled to find the basic facts - only for him to say eventually that actually he had photos of her grandparents on the back of which she had written a detailed family tree - dates, maiden names etc. you will understand how mad I get with him! Still- he is in his late 80's and a very forthright Yorkshireman!

That could well be Helen, but i have found another Helen Minto born same place and date and contacted the tree owner on here only to find she isn't my Helen. So there are at least 2 of them around! I am debating joining Scotlands People as pretty cheap short term, and, if I'm reading this right - you can actually access and download certs on line.Thank goodness Santa was generous this year!

Regards Sue

Wonder if this is Ellen/Helen?

HELEN MINTO
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 06 SEP 1829 Hobkirk, Roxburgh, Scotland


Parents:
Father: WILLIAM MINTO

Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:

C117904

Great news Sue!

And you also found Andrew in 1851 so you know a little more about him.

Thanks for the update.

Rose

P.S. How's your uncle taking all this?

Hi Sue..... WOW.... What a lovely start to your New Year.....

Lot to take in.... Just having read all the info...
tried to look on IGI for these names but for some reason it is saying URL error please contact administrator????

Will look later. perhaps they have a blip.

Happy New year to you & yours.

Margaret

I have now received 2 very good certs! Mary Ann Walker was born on 28 March 1853 in Portsmouth. The address was Collingwood place - possibly Barracks? Her mother was Ellen Walker formerly Minto and father was Andrew Walker, a Private in the 93rd Reg't. This tallies with his occupation ( tho deceased ) of Drillmaster on Mary's Marriage cert. The 93rd was in fact the Sutherland Highlanders who embarked from Portsmouth to the Crimea in 1854. Many of them were killed at the Battle of Alma ( they were the original Thin Red Line ) and I do wonder if Andrew was killed there. I can't find a definite Death Cert for him as it's such a common name. If this is so, perhaps Ellen had gone down to Portsmouth with the Regiment ( surely not just to wave him off! ) and maybe she returned to Scotland after his death.

The marriage cert is for Edinburgh, May 1859 and gives Helen Walker as a 26 yr old widow (Phew! ) and John Hebden as a 42 yr old Batchelor Soldier. The cert is very difficult to read as in a very ornate, but blotchy copperplate and both their addresses are the same - Pie-------. However I've found one of the witnesses in 1851 as a soldier at Piershill Barracks in Edinburgh so that seems to be about right. At that time Andrew Walker was an unmarried 28 yr old soldier also in Barracks there so all seem connected by the Army.

I'm not familiar with Scottish marriage certs so a bit puzzled by the details of the couple's parents. For John it just gives Sarah Hebden, but as it should apparently be his mother's maiden name does that mean she wasn't married to a Mr Hebden? For Helen it also just gives a mother - Mary possibly Wraighton and again no father mentioned. so I wonder if they only listed living parents? I've looked for Helen Minto in the censuses hoping to find a mother Mary, but the best one i can find in 1841 just gives the mother's name as Mrs Minto! Gee thanks! I have found a very likely marriage for Helen Minto and Andrew Walker in Feb 1852 at the Barony, Lanark so that's another cert I need!

So hopefully with all your help we've solved the puzzle of the multiple surnames and I'm delighted to have added so much to my tree.

Thanks again, and Happy New Year,

Best wishes, Sue

Thanks for that Joan - it certainly sounds like the right one. I think I'll ring GRO tomorrow and see if they can help without the full registration - I've done that before and altho it costs more than ordering online I have found them to be enormously helpful.

Thanks for your input too Rose, but I don't think I could stand another change of surname! This wretched woman!

I'll phone Portsmouth tomorrow as I'm not working and try to get Mary Ann's birth cert.

Just in case I have no more news for a while - a very Happy Christmas to everyone who has been so helpful - it is much appreciated!

Best wishes, Sue

Too bad about that birth cert.

It might be worth getting that Scottish cert to see Ellen/Helen's maiden name. Mary Ann could be under different surname.

Rose

Thanks for the vote of confidence Margaret! I've now found the other 2 births on Ancestry - had a senior moment there I fear! Would be interested re the Bandsman as I know nothing of that one - either!

Sue

Yes Sue I would say there is a 99% chance of it being right. I always feel for whatever reason that there is always the Very remotest chance when we make these dississions that there is room for the eliment of doubt. Seems pretty conclusive this time tho. As you say the element of the army seems very prevelant....... Not sure but think when I was looking before on census someone was a bandsman so dismissed as wrong... Will have another look later.
Margaret
FreeBMD put Hampshire

Hi Margaret,

Thanks very much for that - why can't I find them then???? I think I'll ring the Office and see if they can help to eliminate one of the 2 choices before ordering again. Presumably you're in agreement over the marriage cert being right and not just me making suppositions fit facts!

Once again - many thanks,

Sue

Hi Sue Some very positive results then...2 out of 3 can't be bad....

Now births. There are 3 around that time. Portsmouth came under Portsea Island for registration purposes for a while ..Then changed to porstmouth.

Mary Ann Walker Dec Q.1851 Portsea I. (Island) 7 181
" " Jun.Q 1852. Portsea I. 2b 332 ( The one you sent for I think)
" " Jun.Q 1853 Portsea I. 2b 341.

Now you know fathers Name. & occupation.. give that when you apply... Will help eliminate.... Local Office
Registry Office,
Milldam House,
Burnaby Rd,
Portsmouth,
PO1 3AF
Tele:- 023 9282 9041. Good luck

Margaret

I have now received some certs - with mixed results! The birth cert for my grandfather is fine, and gives the maiden name of his mother as Mary Ann Hebden. Pretty much as expected, but prob not legally correct.

The marriage cert for Henry Bird and Mary Ann Walker ( Sheffield 1870 ) seems to be ok too. The groom is 20, son of William Bird ( correct ) and the address is just ' Barracks ' . Both William and Henry are described as Bandsmen - I knew William was in the Army ( tho not found as a bandsman before ) but hadn't heard anything of Henry being in the Army. He was however a very keen amateur musician, playing in Works Bands and Orchestras so feasible. Mary Ann is 18, daughter of Andrew Walker ( deceased ) who is described as a Drillmaster - Army connection again? The witnesses were William Bird and Louisa Jane Rhodes. I've found a young lady of this name in Sheffield in 1871 and 1881 whose father was a 'Pensioner ' - Army again? Louisa was born in Edinburgh Castle ( her siblings all over the Uk ) and as William Bird ( and family ) were stationed in Edinburgh Castle in 1861 they could be family friends from their Army days. So I think the marriage cert checks out in several ways - unless it's just wishful thinking!

Unfortunately the birth cert for Mary Ann Walker, Portsmouth 1852 was wrong. Her parents were George Thomas Walker ( a Draper ) and Sarah Ann. I've found this family on other censuses and they seem well settled in that area, so don't think it's my mary Ann. Rose - you mentioned finding another possible birth around that time - I can't find one so could you please give me the details?

Thanks everyone for the interest,

Regards Sue

My aunt actually died a few years ago - perhaps just as well as she was always very proud of having her 2 grandmothers commemorated by her own middle names! It may well be that Helen was a widow, but I have an awful feeling about this!!!! Hopefully the various certs will clear it all up - now i know how I'll be spending my Christmas money - again!
Sue

Hope your aunt isn't too disappointed.

Mary Ann might not be illegitimate. Perhaps Helen/Ellen was a widow when she married John Hebdon?

Rose

Sorry for the delay but I've been at work and missed all the fun!

The illegitimacy was a total surprise, esp as my aunt was give the middle name of Hebden in memory of her dear Grannie ( Mary Ann) Hebden! I have just spoken to my aged uncle who is very surprised and adamant she was Hebden not Walker!

At least this explains why we couldn't find a non existent Birth Cert for Hebden or a Hebden/Bird marriage. My uncle thinks he may have his Dad's Birth Cert tucked away somewhere, but if not, I will send off for that, as well as the marriage cert for his parents - now Bird/Walker!

Thankyou so much Rose for somehow cracking the name puzzle - I'm lost in admiration after all my months of searching! Thankyou to every one else who helped too, esp Margaret who has been pming me with ideas.

I will send off for the certs and let you all know the outcome.

Regards Sue

The marriage Rose found is on scotlandspeople but not under Hebdon - it only comes up if you use soundex with his surname.

The marriage cert will give you more info than an English one - both parents' names and both father's occupations.

Sue,

Some certs would help.

The daugher is Mary Ann Walker. Check FreeBMD and IGI for the marriage.

Here's Helen's marriage to John:

From IGI:
JOHN HEBDEN

Marriages:
Spouse: HELEN WALKER
Marriage: 30 MAY 1859 Leith, Midlothian, Scotland


Seeing as she was 18 in 1870, this is probably her birth registration but there is another one around the same time:

Births Jun 1852
Walker Mary Ann Portsea 2b 332

You really need to start by ordering one of the certs for Mary Ann's children.

Rose

Hi Margaret,

i totally share your doubts about John's age in 1871, but the clincher for me is their daughter again whose details are spot on. Surely just too much of a coincidence to have all her details applying to another family too?

Thanks too mgnv - your suggestions also make sense! Except for that dratted American bit!

Have to go off now to cook dinner and stave off a family revolt by starving husband! Will check back in later.

Thankyou all again, the help is much appreciated.

Sue

Maybe Hawick, Roxburgh, Scotland is where she's born.

okay Sue.... So far have found helen/ellen on 1881/91/01 as you say with daughter married to Henry Bird.... Not convinced about 1871..... John is much older than Helen/Ellen..although of course very possible...

... perhaps 1st. you need to buy some certs. I would start with daughter Mary Ann... That will give you Helen's maiden name.... Then marriage to find both fathers & age of John.....

1881 says helen born Edinburgh , Scotland.
Died 1910 age 75 so that makes her born c 1833. (FreeBMD)
Poss Marriage....
John Hebden to Ellen Milner 1849 Selby. 23 524.(FreeBMD)
Maybe someone who has a subs to Scotlands people may be able to look up her birth for you.

Hope this helps...... Please feel free to PM me if you prefer

Regards Margaret