Genealogy Chat

I am unable to find my new great great grandparents, John and Margaret's ages, place of birth, etc from my fostered great grandmother, Gertrude (Rutherford) Allen's baptism record that I found it few months ago from Ancestry. It was Saint Mary Magdalene, Woolwich, Kent on 22 Sep 1889. Gertrude was born on 21 Dec 1888.

I only know their address which was 1 Rush Grove Street, Woolwich. And John was a Labourer from the baptism record. It is difficult to find their marriage certificate.

I did find Findmypast to get 1881 and 1891 censuses by search the address but that was not them.

This week, I received GRO email to say that I have unsuccessful to find her birth registration for 3 years search from 1889 to 1891 with her birth of place, Kent.

I have my great grandparents, George and Gertrude’s stillborn twin daughters named Margaret Kathleen Baker in 1922, Woolwich. It looks like from her mother’s name, Margaret.

How do I find out about John and Margaret Allen's ages, a marriage, place of birth etc?

Thanks, Steven.

Steven


sorry, I'm a little cnfused


Are John and Margaret Allen the birth parents?

Have you looked on ancestry.co.uk for the censuses ...... transcriptions are often different between findmypast and ancestry.




sylvia

Steven


I have just re-checked the baptism ...... and please note that the baptism was in MIDDLESEX, not Kent

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Gertrude Rutherford Allen
Name: Gertrude Rutherford Allen
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 22 Sep 1889
Father's Name: John Allen
Mother's Name: Margaret Allen
Parish: Saint Mary Magdalene, Woolwich
Borough: Greenwich
County: Middlesex <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


No county is given for the address ...................... but the assumption is that it would be in the same parish




It does make a difference for us helpers to be looking in the correct county!




sylvia

Hi Sylvia,

Yes, John and Margaret Allen are the birth parents.

I have 1891 to 1911 of Gertrude. She was with her foster parents, James and Mary Rutherford from 1891 to 1901. In 1911, she was a visitor to her future parents in law.

But where are John and Margaret Allen in the censuses? No idea what their ages or place of birth, etc.

I always thought Woolwich was in Kent. So it is in Middlesex/London.

Thanks, Steven.

Steven

Although Woolwich is still in Kent it actually became a part of the London District in 1889.

There may be no connection at all but in Mar q 1871 in Westminster on the same page there is a John Allen and Eliza Rutherford.

Chris

Hi nameslessone, thanks for letting me know about it.

Hi SatNav,

Yes, I have James' birth certificate who was born in Cumberland. His parents were Robert Rutherford (policeman) and Jane Rook. I am unable to find their marriage certificate. It seems nothing with the connection.

Was Minnie Gertrude Allen from Woolwich at below? Or different one? I could not find Greater London, Kent. Where did you find her?

Births Dec 1889 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Allen Minnie Gertrude Woolwich 1d 1222
.

Hi Steven,

Did Margaret have a middle name.

Chris

Hi Chris, I am not sure if it was them. Because Eliza is different name to Margaret. I will look up ancestry to see if they were in London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754–1921 tomorrow at my library.

No, there is no her middle name in the baptism record. It was only saying "John and Margaret" in Parents name and Allen in surname.

Thanks, Steven.

SatNav, Minnie Gertrude Allen was in Ancestry's London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813–1906. She was born on 15 Aug 1889 and was baptist in Woolwich. So it is not her.

Hi Steven,

Could Margaret have been her middle name. Long shot but there is a marriage between John Allen and a Louisa Margaret Thompson on 28/2/1874 in Laleham which is in Middlesex.

Chris

Is this them?

1891 census transcription details for: 90, Sandy Hill Road, Plumstead
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12 Piece: 535 Folio: 151a Page: 24

Reg. District: Woolwich Sub District: Plumstead West
Parish: Plumstead Enum. District: 7
Ecclesiastical District: St James City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 90, Sandy Hill Road, Plumstead
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation ,
Disability Where Born
RUTHERFORD, James Head Married M 39 1852 General Labourer
Burgh
Cumberland
RUTHERFORD, M A Wife Married F 38 1853
London
RUTHERFORD, Gertrude Daughter F 2 1889
Lambeth
London

Could John have been Widowed hence Gertrude with foster parents?


1891 census - household transcription
Person: ALLEN, John
Address: 60, Lodging House, Wentworth Street, Spitalfields, London, Tower Hamlets

ALLEN, John Boarder Widower M 40 1851 Labourer
St George in the East
London

Greenwich and Woolwich are very close to each other
but these registrations seem a bit late to be your Gertrude

Births Jun 1889
Allen Gertrude Greenwich 1d 1090
Allen Gertrude Annie Greenwich 1d 1048

Any connections here?

Marriages Dec 1865
Allen Mary Jane Elizabeth Bromley 2a 501
Rutherford James Joseph Bromley 2a 501
Williams Ann Bromley 2a 501

I too wondered if Margaret had died. The reason I asked about her having a middle name was that there is a death of a Margaret Ann Allen aged 42 in Jun q 1889 in Lewisham (don't know if the areas relevant) . I realise this was inbetween Gertrudes birth and her baptism.

Chris

Lewisham is very close to Greenwich. Woolwich is now in the borough of Greenwich.

Hi Barbara, yes that’s them. And in 1901, they used Rook because it was James’ mother’s maiden. I don’t know why they used Rook. And thanks for that John Allen in census. It is hard to know if he was. Because of no evidence with it. I will keep this in case. Interested about marriage on Dec 1865 between Rutherford and Allen. But I don’t think that was them because Mary used her middle name “Ann” and James never used any of his middle name.

Hi Selena, however, I ordered GRO for 3 years search from 1889 to 1891 and there is no records of Gertrude with her parents.

Chris, thanks, I will see if I can find anything with Margaret.

This morning I went to my genealogy society and found that they had CD-Rom of the Saint Mary Magdalene church so I looked for 1 Rush Grove Street to see how long they lived. I am surprised that they lived at that address only for few months. In a baptism record, first one was on Sep 1, 1889 by McKnight then Sep 22, 1889 in same address that was my Allen. Last one was Nov 3, 1889 by Cole. I wonder what a house of 1 Rush Grove Street was. Was it a guest room?

Also, I found an interesting one was stated “deceased” under occupation in the baptism record on Mar 1888. That’s mean John and Margaret were still alive?

How can I find out information about 1 Rush Grove Street? I want to know if there have any records of tenants or something like that.

It might tell about how old or where John and Margaret Allen came from?

Steven.
People frequently moved house in those days. Sometimes even a few doors away in the same street. Cheaper rent,larger smaller rooms, eviction for not paying the rent.

I googled Rush Grove St and it came up under The Complete Listing of the streets on London beginning with letter R on 1891 census.
Rush Grove St was in Woolwich Dockyard.

There are builders advertising called Deusi Construction. in Rush Grove St .It shows a map